Germany to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine — reports

[u/billsmith123]

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-report/a-64503898?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf

[u/Senator_45]

How many is a company?

[u/Chillhoof → u/Senator_45]

According to German media it's a company. 14 tanks.

[u/koryaa → u/Chillhoof]

Same as Poland then. Poland will send their 30-40 year old 2A4s instead of their modernized ones tho (the german ones are 2A6s, which is the version build in the 2000s).

[u/mormotomyia → u/koryaa]

The A6 have the newer L/55 gun..

Massive firepower upgrade + new optics

[u/HouseOfSteak → u/mormotomyia]

"Normally, if it's old but it works wonderfully, you tend to keep the same model.

This does not include weaponry. You always want to shoot the shiny new gun when the opportunity presents itself."

[u/Gabstones → u/Senator_45]

14 tanks give or take. Atleast in the US. May be different in Germany

[u/Hubinator → u/Gabstones]

14 is the NATO standard.

[u/Apprehensive-Egg6448 → u/Hubinator]

Thank god both nations use NATO standards, would be a pain in the arse having to convert battalions the size of a foot ball field to standard units or so

[u/Wsbucker → u/Apprehensive-Egg6448]

European or American football?

[u/koryaa]

German media outlets are reporting that the US might send Abrams aswell (along with MTBs from other nations). If so Scholz got what he wanted.

[u/sr71Girthbird → u/koryaa]

So you're telling me that since Russia won't be holding their own tank biathlon this year that Ukraine will be holding them instead with the Challengers, Leopards, and Abrams all competing?

[u/koryaa → u/sr71Girthbird]

Yeah will be interesting against the "t-72" team. Micheal bay will be happy. Vs. the t-90 will be a rare sight probably.

[u/c0ldgurl → u/koryaa]

t-90 will be a rare sight probably

Never a better opportunity for real world trials...

[u/A_Soporific → u/c0ldgurl]

The T-90 has been in service since 1992. It's just a next gen T-72, including the abysmal 4 km/h back up speed that's proven to be so completely lethal.

If the maybe 20 T-14s that exist are actually combat ready, then that'd be a neat thing to capture without a fight when it throws a track.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/A_Soporific]

In Russia tank only go Forward, no Back.

[u/IrishWithoutPotatoes → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

Russia must really be holding on to order 227

[u/SupplyChainGuy1 → u/IrishWithoutPotatoes]

NOT ONE STEP BACK, err TREAD

-Stalin I think

[u/Aurailious → u/sr71Girthbird]

Would be pretty cool at the end of this for Ukraine to parade all the equipment they received. It'd be a pretty interesting collection of tanks alone.

[u/Tiafves → u/Aurailious]

Finally a military parade that actually isn't just a dick waving contest. Hey guys come to the parade and see military equipment from around the world!

[u/Physical-Ring4712 → u/Aurailious]

Annual parade of all the countries that helped, finished with the brave people of Ukraine. Would be nice memory.

[u/Enrage → u/Physical-Ring4712]

There has to be a tractor pulling a captured Russian tank in the parade too!

[u/big_duo3674 → u/sr71Girthbird]

Joke aside, that's essentially true in this situation. There was great hesitancy at first to supply any arms, but the people of Ukraine stood up and showed the world that they are worth investing in. Public opinion of Ukraine in western countries drastically increased, which has in turn allowed much more bold equipment deals to go through. Now that we're at this point it has pretty much become a way for countries to live test their military gear against the Russians, something that was nothing more than a dream for many years. The intelligence gathered has become worth every single tank or artillery piece sent to them, and it's a guarantee that part of the deal includes Ukraine sharing everything they can

[u/QuantumRealityBit → u/big_duo3674]

Perfectly said and very true!

[u/zveroshka → u/koryaa]

I'm really curious to see how many Abrams the US will send. The US has probably the largest remaining stockpile of operational tanks in the world. We can afford to donate a lot more than Germany and other European countries.

[u/Plopsiecons → u/koryaa]

Mountain Bikes?! Yikes! - I know what you mean, just couldn't resist.

[u/SisyphusCoffeeBreak → u/Plopsiecons]

Main Tattle Banks!

[u/Crusoebear → u/SisyphusCoffeeBreak]

Mini Toblerone Bars

[u/Jaakarikyk → u/Crusoebear]

Massive Teddy Bears

[u/Nalortebi → u/Jaakarikyk]

Many Titted Beavers

[u/The_Phreak → u/Plopsiecons]

BMX Bandit is on the case.

[u/Onlyindef]

Oh tank of the lake, what is your wisdom?

[u/_zenith → u/Onlyindef]

Panzer of the Lake turned out to be somewhere in Hungary iirc. Nearby at least!

[u/iThinkWithMyDickHead → u/_zenith]

Belgium: https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/57033/what-is-the-origin-of-the-lake-tank-image-that-has-become-a-meme

[u/TedTheGreek_Atheos → u/Onlyindef]

You can't declare yourself Emperor just because a watery tart lobs a tank at you!

[u/Evignity]

Well that about seals the deal for russia being totally fucked. Yeah it's "just" 14 tanks but that's not the big news, it's that this opens the flooddams for everyone. Just like how everyone was trepid to even send artillery at the start whilst now everyone is sending tons of it, this basically leaves very few things of the table for Ukraine.

And modern tanks vs non-modern tanks is a nightmare for the non-modern, more so than any other field of equipment bar airplanes

[u/SomeGuyNamedPaul → u/Evignity]

Artillery quickly went from a few pieces to a goddamn competition.

[u/qpgmr → u/SomeGuyNamedPaul]

Everyone in the arms business wants to real-world test their wares.

[u/WingedGeek → u/qpgmr]

Except Russia for some reason.

[u/canttaketheshyfromme → u/WingedGeek]

Russia: "We have a hypersonic cruise missile that can destroy the decadent west without warning. Don't test us. No, you can't see it. No, it didn't blow up, that's just propaganda."

The US: "Want to see our new hybrid turbojet/ramjet switch modes in a windtunnel?" EDIT: volume warning

[u/HouseOfSteak → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

I've said it once, I'll say it again:

The US is the sort of entity that freaks the fuck out when their enemies MIGHT have a weapon at their disposal that can hurt them, and goes full R&D on a massively superior weapon to crush it......and then learn that the aforementioned weapon doesn't actually exist.

[u/canttaketheshyfromme → u/HouseOfSteak]

Literally the F-14/F-15 development cycle, yup.

[u/HouseOfSteak → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

Was that the plane that was built because the communists (Soviet or Chinese, I can't remember which) flimed a grand total of like 14 nuclear-ready planes twice (to make it look like it was 28 planes in total), and then the US responded with developing hundreds or thousands of superior planes of their own?

I mean I don't think it is, but I can't remember how exactly I learned this.

[u/canttaketheshyfromme → u/HouseOfSteak]

Oh, no, but good on you remembering that story!

That was the Myasishchev M-4, a spectacular disappointment in range and payload that mostly was converted to aerial tankers. In 1955 the Soviets flew 10 of them for a crowd, then lapped around again, and again... even with 2 of them having to drop out... until the observers saw 28... and "extrapolated" from that, that the Soviets must have about 800 of them total.

The F-14 and F-15 were inspired by the appearance of the MiG-25 interceptor, with too many analysts believing it was a high-speed, highly-maneuverable air superiority fighter... when it was really a massive radar and two massive engines with a bunch of stainless steel in the shape of an airplane holding those together, that measured turning radius in miles. So the US built the two most dominant air superiority fighters ever to counter it (until the F-22 came along), with the F-15 to this day having never having been shot down in air-to-air combat with the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Qatar and Singapore. And the F-14 came out with a radar + missile system that could lock up and fire on 6 separate targets at once, from beyond where the enemy might even know the US fighter is in the air, then exit the combat area while the missiles tracked on their own, OR move in to engage with shorter-range missiles and its gun as an excellent dogfighter that could match planes that had half of its massive weight.

[u/mybluecathasballs → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

Well. I wonder what they are holding on to till intelligence says someone else has something new and improved. You know it'll be something like "you might hear it, maybe, but you sure as fuck won't see it or be able to hit it."

[u/nvn911 → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

And the F-14 came out with a radar + missile system that could lock up and fire on 6 separate targets at once

Ain't nothing do Fleet Defense like the F-14 did Fleet Defense.

[u/StillAll → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

Wait.... is that true? No F-15 loses EVER from being shot down?

That can't be right... can it? This is perhaps one of the most prolific fighters of all time, and not one single loss to enemy fire... ever?

[u/jjayzx → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

SOUND WARNING it's stupid music and not the sound of the engine, big let down and annoyance.

[u/guto8797 → u/jjayzx]

Yeah what the fuck is up with these clips? If I wanted to listen to mediocre techno, I'd go do that, I want to hear a ramjet fucking roar!

[u/iSWINE → u/canttaketheshyfromme]

Just a warning to people that have sound on, turn it down if you click the second link.

[u/funktion → u/iSWINE]

MAWP

[u/releasethedogs → u/qpgmr]

This is ending up like the Spanish Civil War in that aspect. If a global conflict happens Ukraine will go down as where all the weapons got tested.

[u/guto8797 → u/releasethedogs]

And turns out that guess what, the stuff designed in the 70's to fight Russia in Eastern Europe is performing admirably well at fighting Russia in Eastern Europe.

And unlike the west, Russia hasn't really improved their gear since, not to a meaningful degree. A few show tanks and aircraft that you only bring out to parades because "they are too powerful" don't win wars

[u/HamPotatoe → u/guto8797]

"Too powerful" ended up meaning "too logistically straining for our inept and corrupt military" just as it did in the Soviet end days. Didn't realize that's what Putin meant when he said he wanted the Soviet Union restored.

[u/guto8797 → u/HamPotatoe]

Even then, a lot of the publicised specs and capabilities of their equipment are just made up or technicalities that don't apply to real life, like how the max achievable speed for a Toyota truck is 300mph if you throw it off a cliff.

[u/releasethedogs → u/guto8797]

BUT BUT they have hypersonic missiles!

[u/templar54 → u/Evignity]

Poland already applied for permission to send 14 more so that's 28. 14 Challangers on top of that. So that's 42 modern western mbts already. That is nothing to scoff at. Such amount can turn a tide in a lot of battles. At this point we have to hope that adequate training will be provided and tanks can be used effectively because as Turkey has proven, no matter how good the tank is, if you use it stupidly, it will not end well.

[u/Moifaso → u/templar54]

The Netherlands are considering sending the 18 they are leasing from Germany

[u/Evilbred → u/Moifaso]

Hopefully the lease terms are not as strict as with Toyota. I can only imagine the end lease inspection after a few RPGs have hit them.

[u/Ooops2278 → u/Evilbred]

Most importantly the lease terms come with an option to buy them...

[u/Evilbred → u/Ooops2278]

Have you seen the balloon payments and buyout prices for Main Battle Tanks?

Very difficult to swing that on an average salary.

[u/20mins2theRockies → u/Evilbred]

Yeah but if you turn in your main battle tank lease the dealership will often charge for every little scratch and dent. And don't even get me started on those extra miles charges..

[u/kreton1 → u/20mins2theRockies]

Which is why I documented the exact state of mine when I got it, combined with photos of every tiny detail and signing it off together with the owner of the dealership.

[u/miktoo → u/20mins2theRockies]

But since you didn't add the tire & wheel package, they'll charge you full price for a new set of chains at the end of the lease.

[u/GaucheAndOffKilter → u/Evilbred]

Yeah but they’re trying to offload the ‘22s before the ‘23s are on the lot. No one wants last year’s tank model

[u/Evilbred → u/GaucheAndOffKilter]

Sir, I'm Canadian.

We continually buy, borrow or lease 2nd hand helicopters, jets, subs, tanks, and airliners.

Our troops can go through an entire career and never use a piece of equipment that is newer than they are old, or that was purchased brand new.

[u/robeph → u/Evilbred]

Funny. Canada sells a large number of old ambulances to cash strapped US Emergency medical services. Maybe Canada could afford new weapons if they would stop buying top of line ambulances

[u/Organicgrowth → u/robeph]

I know right? Where the fuck are our priorities

[u/Evilbred → u/robeph]

Yeah, if we weren't so busy providing life saving emergency healthcare to everyone, we'd be able to better support our military industrial complex!

[u/triggered_discipline → u/Evilbred]

Toyota legal team is pretty aggressive about wanting the RPGs and machine guns mounted to the back of the Tacomas, rather than fired at them.

[u/millijuna → u/triggered_discipline]

In all seriousness, I recall an incident from shortly after the initial withdrawal from Iraq, a Toyota pickup a was spotted running around with isis fighters and a machine gun in back, with the Decals of a small town plumber from the US still on the side of it.

The guy had traded the pickup on, and the dealership had sold it on, without removing the decals. It made its way all the way to terrorist hands.

The guy got a lot of unfair grief for it, as it was all over the news.

[u/Mebbwebb → u/millijuna]

He sued and won

[u/FearlessAttempt → u/millijuna]

I remember that. I was a lot more worried about the column of brand new Hilux's they were getting their hands on. Where were those coming from.

[u/WorkAccount2023 → u/templar54]

Plus several dozen soviet T tanks from Morocco

[u/Gornarok → u/WorkAccount2023]

Czech republic, Poland, Slovenia and Baltics have already given Ukraine hundreds of T72 (Slovenia upgraded T64)

[u/lil_sh_t → u/templar54]

France is also checking to send some Leclercs

[u/Onionsteak → u/lil_sh_t]

Hopefully without the Ferrari strategists

[u/dapperpanda → u/Onionsteak]

We are checking…

[u/fernandopoejr → u/dapperpanda]

which way is north. question?

[u/CGNYC → u/fernandopoejr]

Opposite East, please confirm.

[u/reigorius → u/Onionsteak]

Plan B Charles, plan B.

[u/Wabbit_Wampage → u/reigorius]

Ok, we are considering Plan F. Plan F.

[u/2slowam → u/Onionsteak]

STOP INVENTING, STOP INVENTING

[u/zveroshka → u/templar54]

So that's 42 modern western mbts already.

Have to also remember they've also been given a ton of other modern equipment like the bradleys. If they can get properly trained on these systems in the next 2 months, a spring offensive just using this latest round of equipment would be enough.

[u/call_me_bropez → u/zveroshka]

I know with completely new recruits in English you can teach even the dumbest of mother fuckers to operate a Bradley in a month. There’s no way those things aren’t ready to go for spring, but I would save them till the mud hardens

[u/JPJackPott → u/templar54]

Ukraine seem to be good an manoeuvre warfare. Seeing how well they moved on their big offensive down the Dnipro, adding in companies of tanks to that they could very easily break through lines and cause some real problems. Especially on the flat featureless terrain of Crimea

[u/Dhexodus → u/JPJackPott]

Their light vehicle raids are amazingly effective and risky. Three or four Hummvees charging a Russian position with LMGs firing is some action movie shit. Fast and agile, but still very vulnerable.

[u/DilectusX → u/Dhexodus]

British SAS' "Desert Raiders" used this to great effect in WW2!

[u/Forest-Ferda-Trees → u/DilectusX]

A tale as old as horse archers

[u/DilectusX → u/Forest-Ferda-Trees]

You're not wrong! Run in, fuck up some shit, and skedaddle!

[u/Gellert → u/DilectusX]

In a tank that's a thunder run.

[u/DilectusX → u/Gellert]

That's metal af

[u/SaltLakeCitySlicker → u/DilectusX]

Let's go blow up every plane at the airbase with a couple of jeeps lads!

Roight!

[u/DilectusX → u/SaltLakeCitySlicker]

"Who Dares, Wins" is the SAS motto if I recall correctly. Those raids were proof.

[u/jazwch01 → u/Dhexodus]

There are some videos from an American volunteer doing exactly this and its pretty bonkers.

[u/kaptainkeel → u/jazwch01]

Even more interesting is the survivability. There's one video where their humvee looks like it gets annihilated by a mine(?). Second humvee gets out of the kill zone, then turns around and goes back in guns blazing. All but one person in the first humvee survived (and the last guy unfortunately got out on the side that was getting shot at by small arms).

Edit: Also, there are multiple angles. There's one on the inside of the blown up humvee, another in the second humvee, and a drone view. 2022!

[u/youwill_forgetthis → u/templar54]

Or the opposite with Bashar's army. It went from a tank turkey shoot bonanza, to every other video being a tank peek-a-boo a room or bunker full of rebels and by the time anyone even knows what happened it's already laterally a few blocks away ready to peak again.

[u/dub-fresh → u/templar54]

They just got 100.bradleys and 50 strykers as well.

[u/Lazorgunz → u/dub-fresh]

and Marder and the French IFVs

[u/Roggo → u/Lazorgunz]

and 50 CV90

[u/claimTheVictory → u/templar54]

If there's one thing the Ukrainians have shown, it's that they're not only capable of using equipment well, they're capable of using it in new and innovative ways.

But yeah, they still need proper training.

Hopefully that has already happened, in anticipation of this transfer.

[u/tangouniform2020 → u/claimTheVictory]

Saw a YT vid of a soldier showing off his HIMARS. This means “acquire target” he said in Ukrainian, pointing at the joy stick labeled that and went through pointing out various features. “I have learned a little English” he says. “This one” pointing at “launch” “means **** you, Russia”

They are operating on the Teach Three concept. Send a few ti “school” and when they get back they use live fire to teach three more, who duplicate this. In a few weeks who have thirteen reasonably trained crews. And they learn shooting bad guys.

[u/Axeman2063 → u/templar54]

And it looks like the US is sending some Abrams.

I think zelensky said they needed something like 300 to accomplish what they need to and turn the tide of things. I suspect that won't a be a problem now that Germany has given the green light

[u/Bobdebouwer813 → u/Axeman2063]

He askes for 300 because he needs 60

[u/p4nnus → u/Bobdebouwer813]

Youre probably joking, but in case somebody didnt get it: he needs more than 60 definitely. Even a 100 wont be enough in the long run.

[u/Dreamwalk3r → u/Bobdebouwer813]

Even if plans can be achieved with 60, having 300 will also reduce losses so there's that.

[u/ArguingPizza → u/Bobdebouwer813]

300 is an armored division's worth of tanks. Having an entire additional armored division able to mass at a specific point to breakthrough and roll up the Russian lines would see another massive gain like Kharkiv, at the minimum. That is assuming they can scrape together the troops, IFVs/APCs, artillery, and support equipment to go along with it.

[u/TdrdenCO11 → u/templar54]

I think ukraine said they just need 300 to execute their plan for the spring. I want Spain and Greece to get involved. They both have a lot of leopards

[u/SerpentineLogic → u/TdrdenCO11]

Spain said their Leos were not in a good condition to be sent any time soon

[u/TheCreepeerster → u/SerpentineLogic]

The ones in a bad condition are the 50 Leo 2A4 in storage. Additionally the Spanish Army has 58 2A4s and 219 2A6 in service, which could potentially be transferred to Ukraine.

[u/zxcoblex → u/Evignity]

Nothing better than Estonia, sending 100% of their artillery because they 1) know that Russia’s tied up in Ukraine and can’t fight elsewhere, 2) the more Ukraine fucks up Russia, the less likely they will be to start shit elsewhere, and 3) they’ve got that really fucking big NATO shield and don’t have to worry as all they need to do is delay Russia long enough that the rest of NATO wrecks them.

[u/i_was_there_then → u/zxcoblex]

They are also upgrading to new stuff from Korea and the US. Basically an easy way to get rid of old equipment and give the finger to Russia.

[u/TheMagnuson → u/zxcoblex]

Yes all that, but also Estonia purchased a bunch of brand new artillery from South Korea, so they just gave Ukraine their old stuff. Still great they did that though.

[u/PaulNewmanReally → u/Evignity]

Fourteen Challengers, plus fourteen German Leopards, plus perhaps a dozen or two from others, that's a good 50 MBT's that the Russians don't have an answer to any more. Sprinkle in some of those French AMX's, team all that up with the Marders and Bradleys that were already pledged, throw some artillery and drones behind it, and that's a VERY nice battle group.

[u/veevoir → u/PaulNewmanReally]

SUpply and maintenance for so many different vehicles in one battlegroup would be insane.

[u/stragen595 → u/PaulNewmanReally]

The rumored number for this is around 100 Leopard 2 by Germany, Poland and the rest.

[u/Mrstrawberry209 → u/Evignity]

It ain't over till Ukraine ladies are singing.

[u/gerd50501 → u/Evignity]

Getting way ahead of facts on the ground. Russia has 300,000 additional troops in training. yeah they suck, but its a lot of people. Anytime you throw 300,000 people into a fight it makes a different. Especially against a country with 1/3 of your population. There are rumors of another 500,000 being drafted soon. Russia has 3x the population of Ukraine. So they can afford 3x the casualties and break even. NATO is not giving ukraine long range weapons to hit russian infrastructure while russia is still laying waste to ukraine's cities. Ukraines GDP declined by 35% last year. Russias GDP declined by 6% in 2022.

Peter Zeihan gave the estimate that Ukraines kill ratio is between 3-4 Rusians per 1 ukrainian. This is about equal to the population difference. With the increased Russian mobilization it will need to increase to 6-7 : 1 for them to win. They may not even have enough bullets for that.

All this while NATO is afraid to give Ukraine ATACMS and other weapons that can hit deep into Russia to hit their infrastructure too. This war is going to get a lot bloodier. Russia has not quit a war with less than 500,000 casualties in centuries. It is estimated that they lost 150,000 so far. So we have a long way to go.

Ukraine needs ATACMS and F-16s to win this war. They need to be able to hit behind russian lines and hit russian infrastructure (this includes power plants).

[u/Pronoes84 → u/Evignity]

Age old thing of no one wanting to stand up to the bully alone. But if everyone sticks together....

[u/MelodicBerries]

Damn... Steiner is really going to attack after all.

[u/Pudding_Hero → u/MelodicBerries]

Mein führer…Steiner…

[u/Niidforseat → u/Pudding_Hero]

Steiner konnte nicht genügend Kräfte für einen Angriff forcieren. Der Angriff Steiner ist nicht erfolgt.

[u/poopmeister1994 → u/MelodicBerries]

Natürlich, es war ein Befehl!

[u/CursedLemon → u/MelodicBerries]

There was only a 33% chance that he wouldn't

[u/cLuckb]

Imagine having to deal with Leopard AND Abrhams tanks.

Putin gonna have a rough time.

[u/lock_the_backdoor → u/cLuckb]

Challenger 2 is an extremely capable tank as well.

[u/jesuspeeker → u/lock_the_backdoor]

It has a kettle inside, for when you’re taking 80 rpg hits.

Or however many that one Challenger 2 tank took in Iraq. Beastly tanks

[u/WriteBrainedJR → u/jesuspeeker]

People make fun of the kettle. Considering where (and when) they're sending them, it's actually not a bad feature. Ukrainian winters are fucking cold.

[u/Slant1985 → u/WriteBrainedJR]

According to wiki, Americans are going to start including it in their equipment. Having ready access to hot water is a pretty significant moral booster.

[u/User858 → u/Slant1985]

Having access to hot water means having access to coffee or tea (if supplies are right), which means having access to caffeine. Hell, it's not just a morale booster, it's practical.

[u/Slant1985 → u/User858]

Coffee and tea can both be made and consumed cold. Also Americans generally have Ripit energy drinks available by the pallet. Warm food, beverages, and water for hygiene are “luxuries.” But those kinds of luxuries make a big difference in quality of life while deployed.

[u/TheLesserWeeviI → u/Slant1985]

Coffee and tea can both be made and consumed cold

Angry British noises

[u/Acc87 → u/Slant1985]

Was thinking boiling water would be more important as a desinfectant and to prepare hot (easier digestible) meals.

[u/TZH85 → u/WriteBrainedJR]

I think it's actually a really nice flex. It says we will bomb you into oblivion while we sip a cup of tea.

[u/lucas1121111 → u/jesuspeeker]

Nothing sooths the nerves quite like a nice Earl Grey.

[u/jesuspeeker → u/lucas1121111]

The Brits might be on to something with this tea stuff.

[u/streetad → u/jesuspeeker]

Have a nice cuppa, await rescue. Wonder what they were talking about?

"Did you see that ludicrous display last night?"

[u/matts1900 → u/streetad]

What was Wenger thinking, sending Walcott on that early?

[u/isochromanone → u/matts1900]

The thing about Arsenal is they always try to walk it in.

[u/Rosie2jz → u/lock_the_backdoor]

France might send the Leclerc as well now. Usually how this dick measuring contest goes.

[u/kalesaji → u/cLuckb]

So does the maintenance crew. Imagine you go from servicing the T72 which basically runs on vodka and cyka blyat to servicing the turbine engine or the intricate leo turret.

[u/TheBraveGallade → u/kalesaji]

Dont the ukrainians have T80s? Thouse are gas turbines.

Reminder thst ukraine HAS inherited a not unsubstantial part of the soviet arms industry.

[u/seriouslynumb → u/TheBraveGallade]

T-80s were built in Ukraine AFAIK

[u/go_on_now_boy]

r/noncredibledefense just had a collective orgasm lol

[u/gnarkilleptic → u/go_on_now_boy]

I read the description for that sub but still have no idea what it is

[u/ric2b → u/gnarkilleptic]

It's like furries but for military equipment.

[u/Itshudak87 → u/ric2b]

This is hilarious!

[u/seffay-feff-seffahi → u/ric2b]

Probably the best description of NCD I've seen.

[u/Randyy1 → u/gnarkilleptic]

Some kind of a war/military meme shitposting sub, I guess?

[u/DribblesOnKeyboard → u/Randyy1]

This but with a pro-western and anti-reformer (people who thing ww2 military logic still applies, that's why there's the flying tank as the sub icon) attitude. Expect anything to be waifu'd.

[u/TheAngloLithuanian → u/Randyy1]

I'm a military shitpost loving degenera- I mean NCD member....

And I can confirm that your description is exactly what the sub is.

[u/corkyskog → u/TheAngloLithuanian]

It's honestly pretty good... in comparison

There are a ton of details in the comments you could never find anywhere else.

[u/Kulladar → u/gnarkilleptic]

r/credibledefense is a board for military nerds that has really strict moderation.

non-credible is basically the meme/shitpost board for that.

[u/1_Prettymuch_1 → u/gnarkilleptic]

Military memes and shit-posting

[u/abdomino → u/gnarkilleptic]

It's like gun nuts but for the entire military industrial complex. Also a lot of NATO fans.

[u/Shermantank10 → u/go_on_now_boy]

Jesus Christ dude don’t flash our sub like that!

The public isn’t ready for NCD

Normal, sane people stay away from NCD.

[u/BlumpkinPromoter]

Japan send them a gundam. I know you have one.

[u/Denchik3]

It's happening!!!

[u/Reptardar]

If countries keep this up Ukrainian will be as equipped as a US police department in no time.

[u/Ameph]

I'm not privvy to modern armor but these Leopard 2 tanks must be the pinnacle of tank technology we have for this much push and celebration.

Now...if we can get New Zealand to send a few Bob Semple Tanks...

[u/Evilbred → u/Ameph]

Leopard 2s are great tanks. Abrams are great tanks. Challenger 2s are great tanks.

They each have slightly different capabilities that are suited to their design criteria.

[u/ymx287 → u/Evilbred]

Exactly. And all of them working side by side will provide great success and video material

[u/Bunch_of_Shit → u/Evilbred]

And how do these tanks compare to Russia’s most advanced tank in terms of features and capabilities? I’m not too sure how many of russias best tanks are even in use, I know one was captured by Ukraine because it was abandoned.

[u/cs_katalyst → u/Bunch_of_Shit]

Western tanks can shoot further with significantly better accuracy on the move or sitting still. Massive optics and targeting system upgrades. In an open field the leopard could kill a t72 before even in range of the 72s gun, whilst moving

[u/Admira1 → u/cs_katalyst]

I love a good whilst

[u/Scotty_scd40 → u/Bunch_of_Shit]

The only russian tank that is comparable to western designs is t90m, however russians have very limited numbers of those

[u/sanguinesolitude → u/Scotty_scd40]

Way fewer than a year ago funnily enough. Smoking accidents I assume.

[u/notbatmanyet → u/Ameph]

Leopard 2A6, High end Abrams, Leclercs, Challengers and I guess K2 and possibly Japanese tanks are all roughly equivalent. They share a lot of tech and know-how, but do different trade-offs.

But they all are significantly better than anything Russia can be expected to field.

The Leopard 2 was however, specifically designed to trump Russian tanks and to fight in European Geography...

[u/S4ftie → u/notbatmanyet]

So that's why Ferrari was nowhere last year. They were builing a tank for Charles.

[u/ThePr1d3 → u/S4ftie]

Even better pun when you know that Tank in French is Char.

Char Leclerc sounds exactly like Charles Leclerc

[u/UESPA_Sputnik → u/S4ftie]

I suppose that's an upgrade compared to the truck they've built for for Prost.

[u/MindControlledSquid → u/notbatmanyet]

Let's be honest. They were all designed to fight Russians.

[u/notbatmanyet → u/MindControlledSquid]

True. Though I guess the Asian tanks did not only have Russians in mind. And not European geography.

I believe the Abrams was designed with more theaters in mind as well, even if Russians in Europe was the primary focus.

[u/BigMisterW_69 → u/MindControlledSquid]

The Leopards are more hyper-focused on that role. They were designed to be the first line of defence in Europe, fighting while massively outnumbered in difficult conditions.

The Abrams is more of a generalist, as you never know where the US is going to invade next.

[u/myselfoverwhelmed → u/BigMisterW_69]

Your Abrams description is hilarious lol

[u/notyourvader → u/Ameph]

Apart from fuel efficiency and state of the art armor, it has a stabilized gun barrel with a 4.5 km range. It's considered the best mbt in the world.

[u/Urdar → u/notyourvader]

stabilized gun barrel

which was demonstrated in the only way a german would ever consider valid

[u/ensalys → u/Urdar]

Damn, that's really impressive!

[u/ErwinRommelEz → u/Urdar]

Fucking witch craft

[u/God_Damnit_Nappa → u/Urdar]

That's actually super impressive.

[u/Syntai → u/Urdar]

I don't know why but that is fcking funny, lol.

[u/_Echoes_ → u/Urdar]

"Let me show you its features"

[u/FluentLisp → u/Urdar]

Why did they hire Kelsey Grammer for this demo film?

[u/therealhairykrishna → u/notyourvader]

I believe the Challenger 2 is accurate out to about 8km with HESH rounds - it's why they kept the rifled barrel even though it's not so good with sabots.

All the modern MBT's are excellent and 'best' really depends on what you're doing. All of them are insanely good compared to the old heaps that Russia are making do with.

[u/ATownStomp → u/notyourvader]

Are they equipped with the new anti-missile systems?

[u/IronVader501 → u/ATownStomp]

Trophy-APS is only equipped on the A7A1 afaik.

And since its an israeli-designed system they'd have to agree, which given their track-record so far, they probably wouldnt.

[u/TWiesengrund → u/notyourvader]

You're not so bad either! - signed by Leopard tank family

[u/thematrixnz]

German tank division vs the Russians? Uh oh

[u/CRG_Ghost → u/thematrixnz]

But this time we're the good guys :D

[u/Evilbred → u/CRG_Ghost]

To be fair, last time you drove around with skulls on your uniforms. Whenever you have skulls on your uniform, it's a good sign you are the bad guys.

[u/CRG_Ghost → u/Evilbred]

Checks out on Wagner PMCs

[u/codenamecc → u/Evilbred]

“Vladimir, are we the baddies?”

[u/Silver_Hammer → u/codenamecc]

Obligatory: https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU

[u/CaptainRAVE2]

Excellent, that can open the flood gates. Now let’s send as many as Ukraine can use.

[u/meowmeowdj]

Everyone’s a gangsta, until the real gangster arrives

[u/yusuksong]

How does everyone here know so much about artillery?

[u/ThrowAwayAway755 → u/yusuksong]

Some are pretending to, some learned it from experience in the military, and some learned about it from reading

[u/CdnBcn_99 → u/ThrowAwayAway755]

And some people play War Thunder…

[u/AbandonChip]

Oh man, this is the best news I've seen all day!!

[u/Greg1817]

Let's. Fucking. Go.

I seriously hope these Leopards, along with the vast array of other western vehicles, will be able to change things for the better in Ukraine. These Leopard 2s are a step above current Russian and Ukrainian tanks, and if provided in large numbers they could really do some serious damage, along with the British Challenger 2s that are already slated to be sent.

Looking forward to seeing their combat performance once they arrive in Ukraine.

[u/xXSpaceturdXx]

This is good news, someone had to pull the trigger first nobody wanted too. but now that there is a go ahead from Germany everybody will be sending them tanks, the floodgates are open. Hopefully with this decision further advanced munitions and armaments will be sent. Ukraine needs air burst artillery rounds like there’s no tomorrow, that would change the tide of the war as well.