r/pokemon Nov 25 '22 Helpful 1

The Pokemon Fandom & Rewriting History Discussion / Venting

A lot of people forget how much hate Black and White got back in the day around its release. I was a fan way back then and I can remember getting lambasted on smogon forums for liking the games. Sure, I was young and didn’t make good points, but people were vicious if you said anything nice about them.

Now, everyone is acting like they’ve been on board since day one. There’s no one who I can say “I told you so” to, so I just wanna give a general “I told you so” to everyone.

When everyone starts saying X&Y are the best games in the series in three years refer back to this post.

Edit: Lotta people are talking about Gen IX. This post isn’t about Gen IX. They right tho. Broken game.

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u/DTVMAN_01 Nov 25 '22

I also find that people misremember the reception to x and y everyone loved those games for the first like year or two and then people decided they didn’t like it anymore.

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u/Earthbnd Puff!!! Nov 25 '22

Honestly release day X and Y is a lot different than now. I remember the joy of seeing everyone online with me for the first time on x and y and the way friend safari’s worked also made X and Y have a really strong “we”re all playing together” vibes which really heightened the experience and was really unique at the time Among all mainlines games. Nowadays you really only have the barebones single player experience left in X and Y since it’s an older Gen now and no one else is likely to be online.

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u/GroovinTootin Nov 25 '22

I feel like the PSS helped contribute a lot to that. It was nice to see whenever my friends were online and I always felt like I was playing with others. Plus it is by far the best Online interface GF has ever had, it’s too bad they continue to make it worse instead of sticking with the PSS

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u/LuckyLynx_ Nov 26 '22

it's so tragic to see the state of the PSS these days, every single search on the GTS is empty except for some bots posting shinies requesting pokemon with the "Back" gender so you can't trade. i wish there was something we could do about it, but i doubt nintendo would ever care to fix the issue.

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u/ImNotAnybodyShhhhhhh Nov 26 '22

When Nintendo does the dumbest thing they can do, which is inevitable, there will be a private server. That’s what we can do.

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u/Concerned_mayor Nov 26 '22

If anything, I think the raid search in SV is leagues better than gen 8s frankly bizzare system, so there are some positive trends. Though it'll probably take at least 2 games to match gen 6 on release

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u/alecdvnpt Go Arcie Go! Nov 26 '22

I just wish it wasn’t so incredibly slow. Takes almost a minute to find out that you’ve failed to join a raid. I wish the system was more dynamic. The gap between refreshing the list is also stupidly long.

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u/wannabe414 Nov 25 '22

There'll be nothing like release day X and Y for many of us. It was the first gen that really tried to make breeding and ev training accessible, so all my friends had multiple teams pretty early on. Free Internet play with friends and randos, wonder training.. it was great

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u/mrfatso111 Nov 25 '22

Oh ya that ev thing, it def helps in letting a casual like me feel like I can at least grind out the potential in my mons instead of playing guess work on beating which Pokemon will grind which ev

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u/Brumble1987 Nov 26 '22

Yea, I'm a gen 1 player, but It was X and Y that really started my lust for online play and breeding. Think I bred maybe 100-150 competitive mons during the X/Y and ORAS era. I might do it again this gen if GF fixes the performance issues, but as of now am I done with this gen with Scarlet complete and Violet sadly a regrettable buy.

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u/Teradonn Nov 25 '22

I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I enjoyed Gen 6 so much despite XY being lacklustre but you described it perfectly. Everything from secret bases in ORAS, to wonder trading, to the PSS as a whole brought this “connectedness” that was very new to the franchise

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u/tmssmt Nov 26 '22

XY had a huge variety of mons available early on that for me was key to replayability. Being able to restart and come up with a completely different team was great. A lot of games minimize the variety early on and every time you replay you end up with half the same team unless you go out of your way to try something different.

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u/BluThunderboltz Nov 25 '22

I remember the love and excitement of X and Y. The wonder trades, GTS, and everything. It was a high quality release.

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u/mrfatso111 Nov 25 '22

And that was what got me to purchase x after I had stopped since diamond pearl .

It just felt fresh enough that gamefreak had taken enough small steps that pokemon feels a little fresher

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u/memesea Nov 25 '22

The leadup to XY after the high of B2W2 was incredible. I remember watching giancarloparimango's countdown for it and being hype. I remember not liking the games on launch day (or really since), but I remember ths community feeling really good there, especially with small things like the ghost girl and the suction cup chain fishing

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u/smokinnic_suckindic Nov 25 '22

Yeah for real, x and y were the first games to come out where streaming started to really become a bigger thing so a lot of people were on twitch for the first time doing what is done now, doing playthroughs, shiny hunting, and wonder trading. As a 7th grader at the time it felt like a massive surge in community interaction when I didn’t really talk to anyone beyond irl friends about it. Then again I wasn’t into smogon and stuff back then so I can’t speak on that side of the internet.

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u/Earthbnd Puff!!! Nov 25 '22

For me it was kinda the opposite. I only really discussed Pokémon online or with family, but suddenly x and y dropped and everyone seemingly picked it up for their 3DS and was playing online. I had a bunch of hs classmates ask me for my nephew’s code bc he had a ditto friend safari lol

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u/Link1112 Nov 25 '22

XY was crazy, I remember getting fresh out of high school to my first university lecture and in one of the breaks people suddenly whipped out their 3DS with Pokémon. My mind was blown lol.

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u/Serious_Mouse1346 Nov 25 '22

Lol Pokémon has millions if not billions of fans. There should still be people playing XY.

Sources: loads of people on ORAS

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u/YoImAli Nov 25 '22

The online is still up?

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u/binb5213 Nov 25 '22

yeah 3ds online is still available for the foreseeable future, the eshop goes down in march but the online should be up for at least a couple more years

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u/YoImAli Nov 25 '22

ohhhh, yeah i know that the eshop is going down, i guess i just assumed that with that the online goes down as well. well that’s cool

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u/TyFell Nov 25 '22

Plus you know homebrew communities will get onto bringing online back when it does happen.

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u/HunterBoy344 Nov 25 '22

Actually, the homebrew community has ALREADY made an alternative online service before the original servers have even gone down, called Pretendo Network. Talk about dedication!

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u/BluThunderboltz Nov 25 '22

is the GTS still up on X and Y?

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u/CinnamonAndLavender Nov 25 '22

It was as of a few months ago, with the caveat that about 95+% of the time you're gonna get hacked shinies in trade. Even so, I managed to use it (and Wonder Trade) to finally complete my nat dex & get the shiny charm, some two years or so after beating the E4 (I bought the game in... 2015? '16? but deleted my first pt, which I'm not sure I ever finished, and started a new one in 2019).

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u/phil035 [Turtwig] Nov 25 '22

yeah everything back in the pre gen 7 was packed with content and stuff to do, gen 7 was almost all cutscene, gen 8 can be completed casually in like 12-15 hours.

so far in gen 9 theres a bunch of exploring to do and some interesting tasks but it does feel a bit empty when you get to towns. heck i think theres only a dozen npcs you can talk too in one of the towns and you can't go into any of the buildings =(

don't get me wrong i'm having a blast in it but theres a bit of lack of random stuff to read from npcs

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u/mist3rdragon Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Imo it's probably down to the lack of 3rd version. People were fine with the game with the assumption that there would be a 3rd version with expanded content down the line. A lot of the complaints surfaced more and more once it became more apparent that improvements that people guessed were on the way weren't coming.

(I'm saying this as a gen 6 enjoyer, both for X/Y and ORAS).

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u/Despada_ Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

This is it. People forget that GameFreak had been very formulaic up until Gen 5 when they released sequels instead of 3rd versions. People were under the assumption that they'd either go back to a 3rd version (Z) or double down on sequels (X2Y2), bit neither happened. We got ORAS, as expected, but got Gen 7 for the 20th anniversary. Without anything to improve upon what XY laid down, you were left with a lot of the flaws.

No Megas for any Gen 6 Pokémon besides Diancie, not even the starters, and a lot of the areas of the game that felt lacking were left to rot. People assumed the lack of interesting end game (outside of the Looker quests) were going to be brought in the 3rd version/sequels but all there was to do was the Maison.

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u/mars_warmind Nov 25 '22

https://youtu.be/g7vwuKXp4Ag

A video on what happened to pokemon gray and pokemon z, as well as why there wasn't an actual sequel for x and y if you haven't seen it.

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u/Tellsyouajoke Nov 25 '22

Anyone got a summary for people who cant watch it all?

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u/mars_warmind Nov 25 '22

Pokemon grey was never really on the table, both because gamefreak wanted something fresh aside from the poorly selling definitive version and because the point of black and white was to look at two opposites, and combining them could muddy the message.

X2 and y2 were intended to be made, but gamefreak launched another project they put more members on to try to branch themselves away from pokemon and give their team a break. Part of the issues with x and y are because of this, and this project is why a sequel was never made even though there are placeholder names in the code. The project only produced around ~3ish games and flopped overall.

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u/Wubbzy-mon Top 5 Nov 25 '22

What were the games?

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u/mars_warmind Nov 26 '22

The gear project lead to Harmoknight, project cat jockey and Tembo the badges elephant.

More specifics from the actual video can be found around the 22 minute mark.

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u/AveragePichu Leafeon :) Nov 26 '22

They planned to make more Kalos, but instead they didn’t

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u/wolvern76 #CAN YOU HEAR ME Nov 26 '22

I remember when X&Y came out and how jarring and limiting a lot of the camera work was. You could see more of the map in all of the 2d sections than most of the 3d rendition, which kinda ruined the point of the transition to 3d...

I loved the minigame stuff for the watch where you could train EVs and relationship with pokemon. But god, the battle chateau was just a waste of endgame content.

ORAS came out and i was hyped because of the old battle frontier. They replaced it with the battle chateau, and kinda ruined the whole premise of lategame. They did add the eon flute, mystery islands, and legendaries, but removing the good postgame content, including postgame VS. Battle against the leaders just felt like wasted space.

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u/dejavureal_ Golurk ist der beste glänzende Nov 25 '22

The Hoopa-Legendaries stuff in ORAS post-game and the Zygarde Cells in SM, are always, always, always going to stand out to me as indicators that the 3rd version game for X&Y got scrapped mid-development. I firmly believe that if Pokemon Z had hit the shelves, the series would be in a much better spot than it is right now, in terms of both its quality and in the eyes of its fans.

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u/the_skit_man Nov 25 '22

I can't remember if it was a Did You Know Gaming or some Poketuber that pointed it out, but there was a lot of Gamefreak making their own non-pokemon things around the tien of X&Y and essential that culminated in them not having staff available to do a third version or sequels because they were working on other projects like that elephant game

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u/dejavureal_ Golurk ist der beste glänzende Nov 25 '22

Once again, the "Wrong Timeline" philosophy rears its ugly head to remind us of what could have been...

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u/anweisz Nov 25 '22

cough cough the existence of the unreleased eternal flower floette with its own signature move cough cough

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u/Earthbnd Puff!!! Nov 25 '22

If we don’t get legends Kalos and go back to the war HUGE missed opportunity

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u/YoImAli Nov 25 '22

Exactly. I don’t know what happened, I really wish we got a Pokémon Z :/

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u/AintNoRestForTheWook Nov 25 '22

Gen 6 was what made me fall in love with pokemon. I had only played r/b previously, and while it was fun it really wasn't the style of game I was super into at the time, so i didn't play anything else until x/y (I then ended up buying soul silver, black, and the 20th anniversary yellow and crystal) and I've picked up at least one each of the main titles, except for arceus. That's next.

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u/DTVMAN_01 Nov 25 '22

Fair, I see the flaws, it’s just weird how it was so well received for a few years, then hated, now coming back to well received.

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u/BigTuna109 Nov 25 '22

I started out really loving X&Y, but it fizzled quickly. I barely made myself finish it and didn’t enjoy the post game as much as Gen 5 or Gen 7

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u/Gastroid Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

X&Y were super front loaded. The time between the first few gyms is considerable, but once you hit the back half the game just sort of gave up and sent you on a plot and gym conveyor belt.

I think Game Freak had high ambitions to start but really hit deadlines hard midway thru development (tale as old as time at this point).

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u/slusho55 Nov 25 '22

I remember people liking them, but people despising mega evolutions on the lead up into the game. That’s why I was amazed when people were upset Megas were cut from SwSh

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u/shadowtasos Nov 25 '22

That's how it always goes. New game comes out, everyone is having a blast because we love Pokemon, a few sour cherries mope but that's it. But over time the more casual players move on to other games so you now have the hardcore players who are nostalgic over older games, because let's face it, many of them were (slightly to significantly) better games and have far more replayability. So after the first year all that's left is nostalgia for older games, not a whole lot of good to say about the new games.

The only game I felt broke that trend was gen 8 because yeah the Dexit fiasco was major, it wasn't small potatoes like "oh XY doesn't have enough post-game!" -- and well, I guess gen 9 now too since there is valid criticism. But people act like gen 5 was always universally loved, or gen 6 was always universally found to be boring and handhold-y, when that's not always true. Casuals always love the new versions (hence they sell like hotcakes), some hardcore players hate some of the changes, and it goes on and on.

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u/Polymersion Irrelevant. Nov 26 '22

I think the common chorus around gen V was always "why are we still playing on old pixel grids". The games themselves were generally well spoken about by anyone who played them, but they came out in a point in time where the DS was very old news.

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u/StrawberryToufu Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Same thing happened with Sun and Moon it seems. I can't prove it aside from sharing this post mentioning a honeymoon phase but I swore this sub was praising those games when they were brand new. People were also clearly excited for the game pre-release too. It's such a whiplash that gen 7 suddenly started being considered bad when Dexit happened.

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u/Ivy_lane_Denizen Nov 25 '22

They did. They praised it as changing a bunch with the island challenge instead of gyms. I remember too.

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u/tmssmt Nov 26 '22

People were acting like the challenges were monumental changes vs the gyms. I remember getting into so many arguments about how sure it was cool that they basically got hacked mons with the stat boosts, but structurally they were exactly the same as what we had before - maybe a bit of a puzzle of some sort, then a battle, and you get your badge to unlock progression.

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u/OkorOvorO Nov 25 '22

Gen7 just near impossible to replay with how many cutscenes they have. Still one of my favorite 1st playthroughs of a gen though.

Even the Ultra games were tough to chew at times having played the first versions first.

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u/ADHDBusyBee Nov 25 '22

It was always the main criticism with it, regional forms were very popular, the island trials were a welcome change it was just the handholdyness of it that destroyed replay value.

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u/3163560 Nov 25 '22

SuMo did a lot of things right, but then when people got more time with them the games faults became more and more apparent.

Then USUM released which was basically the exact same game which made all those flaws even more visible.

SuMos storyline was one of its best features too imo, and set it up perfectly for USUM to be a proper sequel like B2W2, but nope!

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u/Educational_Shoober Nov 25 '22

My only issue is that X&Y were a little too easy. Pokemon is rarely difficult, but having bosses with only 1 pokemon was a bit a joke. Otherwise it's one of my favorites.

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u/Joelius_Caesar Nov 25 '22

I honestly don’t have a problem with x and y. They were totally passable games that helped to show what the 3DS was capable of. Megas were cool and the scale was impressive, so it tips into being juuuuuust above mediocre.

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u/nick2473got Nov 25 '22

Interesting. That wasn't my personal experience at the time of release.

When X&Y came out I really liked them, but I remember most people I spoke to saying they found the games boring and generic.

The community was also very split on megas, with many loving them, and many hating them. There was a lot of discussion about if they were over-designed, or even looked like pokemon at all.

But the game itself received a lot of flack from what I saw, and people were debating if it was just the growing pains of the first 3D entry in the series.

Sun and Moon is where I feel like everyone was in love with the game during its first year (except me), people couldn't stop praising it, saying it was the best pokemon game ever, and how it was so fresh and fun. The only criticism at the time was the excessive hand-holding.

And then later things started to change, and now it seems like most people hate gen 7.

But really, I don't think most people are actually changing their minds all that much. It's just that the community is evolving. The fanbase is not made of exactly the same people as it was. It's constantly changing, with new fans coming in, and some old fans leaving.

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u/Ivy_lane_Denizen Nov 25 '22

Its still my favorite. Beat it twice even, once with a wonder trade only team (no repeats, one reroll) Although I havent gone back yet.

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u/reidevjord Nov 25 '22

Began playing with the original blue version, and D/P and X/Y are my favorite games in the series and played them upon release. Did not care for B/W or S/M.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

To be honest, I don’t think people “forget” that generation 5 was hated. It’s mentioned every time the games are brought up.

I think that 1, people came around.

2, the kids who played these games (such as myself) are now young adults and are able to voice their opinions on the games.

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u/Nambot Get blue Spheals Nov 25 '22

I think what also helped is that Black2/White2 really saved the reputation of Unova and Gen V as a whole, by fixing many of the major issues people had with Black & White.

People had two real issues with Black & White, the lack of variety (and the related issues that Pokémon were extremely restricted in what areas they could be found in making many choices not viable simply for how late they turn up), and the fact that the map is very linear with little to offer in the post-game.

But equally, it's two biggest issues actively got worse in subsequent games. Linearity only increased in both Alola and Galar, and Alola removed the national 'dex entirely, before Galar made it impossible to obtain a good chunk of the Pokédex at all. Black & White don't look as terrible next to those titles, so of course it's reputation has improved by contrast.

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u/Blayro You might as well call me PUN-ichan Nov 25 '22

People had two real issues with Black & White, the lack of variety (and the related issues that Pokémon were extremely restricted in what areas they could be found in making many choices not viable simply for how late they turn up)

Ironically, this was one of the reasons I disliked B2W2. I just prefer the feeling of having a new selection of pokemon than using the old ones. Is only through the main story too. Also I disliked the story in B2W2 but I guess I was just too attached to the old protagonists

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u/the-dandy-man Nov 25 '22

Yeah B2W2 felt like a return to formula as opposed to the fun new changes BW made that I really enjoyed. The story didn’t hit nearly as hard. But I did really like the addition of the PWT.

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u/Nambot Get blue Spheals Nov 26 '22

The idea is good in theory, but it's execution is what killed it. In theory it should work, they had 150 new Pokémon, same as they had in Gen I. But whereas Gen I provided lots of Pokémon in routes, with their evolutions appearing in later routes, Gen V pretty much kept things to one area. For instance, compare and contrast Pidgey and Pidove. Both are there respective generations generic bird Pokémon, based on the common pigeon, but while Pidgey can be found in Kanto on 14 of Kanto's 25 routes (with Pidgeotto available in three of those), Pidove is available in precisely two places (with Tranquil available in two different places, and Unfezant in those same two places).

Unova basically locks a lot of Pokémon to the late game by this simple design decision, which makes it feel more artificial. Gen I's method makes the world feel more realised, there are common Pokémon you can find anywhere, uncommon Pokémon that appear in certain habitats, and places where rare Pokémon can be found due to their unique needs as creatures being met there (Pidgey are everywhere you can find grass, Geodude are in most caves, Koffing are only in places with high levels of human waste). Gen V feels much more artificial, on this side of the river there are birds, but the birds never fly across the river, even though the environment is identical, because that's a different game zone.

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u/i_will_let_you_know Nov 26 '22

I absolutely hate seeing the same Pokemon show up everywhere so we have a major difference in opinion.

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u/Morganelefay Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

The one thing Alola and Galar have vs B/W is that you at least have some choices even early on. What could you catch before gym 1? The dog, Pidove, the absolutely useless Purrloin, the Elemonkeys (Who are in the race for worst designs in the game) and that's about it?

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u/Polderjoch Nov 25 '22

You actually couldn't get pidove, but you could get Patrat. In BW you could literally not field a full team of 6 because you would only get your Starter, Patrat and Lillipup on Route 1, Purrloin on Route 2, and the Monkey in the Dreamyard, since the actual grass in the dreamyard was locked behind Cut so you couldn't get Munna, shaking grass doesn't spawn until you have one badge so no Audino, and Pidove, Blitzle, etc are all on Route 3 which is blocked until you go through the dreamyard.

BW has some real issues with Pokémon distribution, and the pre-Gym 1 chunk is definitely a big issue. The other main outliers I'd say is the area around Gym 7, where you have three whole areas that literally only contain Palpitoad, Stunfisk, and Shelmet, and the desert which has the opposite problem of being the only area in the game to house like 4 exclusive Pokémon alongside a bunch of others that are otherwise also only on Route 4.

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u/Supersnow845 Nov 26 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

BW starved you of Pokémon till you hit nacrene then stuffed half it’s dex between nacrene and nimbasa then decided beyond nimbasa that having 4 routes/areas in a row with the same distribution of Pokémon was a good idea

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u/i_will_let_you_know Nov 26 '22

Gym 1 is never designed for you to have 6 Pokemon before you beat it. That's why the gym leader usually only has two Pokemon.

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u/Polderjoch Nov 26 '22

Sure but that's not the point, every other first gym before BW has a wide variety of mons for you to use to the point of having more than enough to fill your party and then some, the ability to have a curated but still decent variety of options to choose from is it; compare and contrast it to Violet Gym which has an identical amount of towns before hitting a Gym but a significantly larger amount of mons and areas to visit before it despite being lower levelled

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u/Link1112 Nov 25 '22

Goddamn I hate those monkeys.

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u/thebiggestleaf Nov 25 '22

It also didn't help that they were a staple for several NPC battles so you saw them goddamn everywhere.

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u/m1dnightlycanroc Professional Shorts Wearer Nov 26 '22

Life is hard for a gen 5 monkey fan :pensive:

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u/Neighbour-Totoro DRAGON. FAIRY. Nov 26 '22

we must stay strong comrade

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u/greenPotate Gen 8 was good Nov 25 '22

Galar is actually the only region where I did a second playthrough almost immediately after I finished the first because of the diversity of choices(+enjoying the theatrics of the gym leader battles) that made me want give it another go and actually have a team that feels different. I adored Gen 4 but that early game...

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u/Teradonn Nov 25 '22

The thing about BW’s linearity is that it really is more of a feature than an issue; they went for a story-driven narrative, which kind of needs linearity to function. But people at the time didn’t really consider this, because Pokémon games before then never had a good plot. The games built a fanbase that was there for the exploring, catching, training, and battling, and not for actual RPG aspects. People saw the linearity as nothing but a flaw, because they didn’t care for the plot at all

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u/jacksonjkeller Nov 26 '22

This is an excellent point I hadn’t thought of before, speaking as someone who both enjoyed Gen V’s story and as someone whose favorite game is RBY in no small part because of the map design.

Still… I do think they could’ve made the linearity of B/W feel more natural. Unova is an ugly loop and they don’t even try to hide it. Like I have a pretty strong image of all the maps in my head and Unova’s always sticks out as being dull.

It’s a nitpick for sure: the pacing of that game is pretty good, I have a strong image of most of the towns, and that’s what really matters. Still, for such a richly realized setting… it is slightly disappointing that they didn’t put much thought in the macro beyond making it a big loop. Given how every other map is, I’m sure that was intentional, but I don’t like it all the same. Just an aesthetic touch.

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u/bennitori Nov 26 '22

I remember gen 5 being controversial. One of the big problems I saw was that in BW you could not catch any non-gen5 pokemon until post game. And that alienated older players, who were concerned that all of their favorite pokemon were going to be removed from story mode or made transfer exclusive going forward. B2W2 fixed that. I remember thinking that was an odd choice, since the story was clearly aimed at slightly older and more mature players. The fact that you couldn't use older gens until post game very much delayed me in playing. But after the story and post game was lauded so much, I came around and had a blast with it.

I find it funny that Gen 5 had controversy around limiting what pokemon you could use, and then gen 7-9 didn't look back and realize repeating that mistake on steroids was a bad idea.

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u/Hannig4n Nov 26 '22

Part of the problem with the B/W dex is that they literally just remade all the old Pokémon and called them new mons.

Like every generation has the rodent and the bird, but B/W gave us a new geodude line, a new machop line, a new zubat/golbat duo, new magnemite line, etc. and they were all so clearly designed just to replace existing lines of Pokémon and at that point like why not just do what Gen 3 did and have a mixed dex. It also didn’t help that many of the cooler Gen 5 designs weren’t accessible until way later in the game and the starter trio designs were (imo) pretty weak.

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u/namohysip The first non-Dragon dragon Nov 25 '22

This is more likely. I was hyped for BW and Triple Battles and was not disappointed when the games released. But I was also still in high school and didn't go on forums very much. Internet was a very different place. But my feelings about Gen V haven't changed since then. So many little things about Gen V were like the capstone of the sprite era. That has only become more and more true as time went on.

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u/ssmike27 Nov 25 '22

Yeah I was 11 when Black and White came out, and I loved it. While I like every generation, gen 3, 4, and 5 are the ones I played most as a kid and have the most nostalgia for. I remember being blown away by how good White looked when I first played it, and I think it still has my some of my favorite UI and aesthetics of any Pokémon game.

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u/StevGuy90 Nov 25 '22

Im old enough to remember the gen 3 hate. It had the OG dexit and double battles, which many claimed would kill pokemon.

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u/ghostly_esper Nov 26 '22

I've been around since the first generation, and I have always thought that generation three was overly hated. It and generations four and five are probably the most nostalgic for me, even compared to the first two.

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u/weakestlink33 Nov 25 '22

I hated black and white. I actually quit playing until right before sun and moon came out because of how much I hated black and white.

I was wrong. They were great games. I just wasn't comfortable having NO familiar pokemon available. Now that those pokemon are nostalgic too, I love the faraway land / soft reset idea.

You can say it to me. I wish I loved black and white at the time. And I wish everyone else did too. The series would have been on a better track now if we didn't force them to dumb down the series and focus on the gen 1 mons (which was exactly what I had wrongly wished they had done at the time)

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u/SonicFlash01 Zipzapflap Nov 25 '22

I would kill for a new gen that only had new pokemon in it now... I'm so fucking sick of the same things showing up again and again.

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u/Flipp_Flopps Nov 25 '22

Most of the remaining Pokémon in my Pokédex are old mons because I just run past them in game thinking they’re boring to catch

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u/SonicFlash01 Zipzapflap Nov 25 '22

Does pokedex progression still increase the chances of a critical/quick/"one wiggle" capture?

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u/Godddy Nov 25 '22

Don't know for new mons you didn't catched but if you have it registered in the dex, next time you try to catch it and succeed will always be a crit.

Ex.

You catch a Pawmi, does the three ball moves, and you register it.

Next time you try to catch a Pawmi, if the ball succeeded it would always be a crit cap.

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u/SonicFlash01 Zipzapflap Nov 25 '22

Interesting? I generally don't bothering trying to capture duplicates of a pokemon unless it's a shiny or I'm trading it away.
Bulbapedia doesn't mention that anything changed, though

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u/Godddy Nov 25 '22

Because it's not critical capture per se nor it's more effective, but a way to not repeat the three jiggle animation (tho if you fail the capture it does the jiggle animation till it opens, so you'll know if you get it or not)

And about dupes I usually don't bother since breeding it's more fun, but since in the game there are mons you can't breed, but catch many it's nice to have the option.

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u/Pearadox_ Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

I still like older pokemon receiving evolutions. I wish we could lean towards new pokemon with a few old ones receiving love. Unfortunately a balance like that doesn’t seem likely. I miss the huge additions of new pokemon we saw in gens 3 and 5, it made the world feel huge.

I think Gen 10s new mons being larger than the past few gens feels refreshing. Too bad the games are optimized like shit

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u/Doctor-Grimm Nov 25 '22

Tbf the number of new Pokémon in Gen 9 is the highest since Gen 5, so hopefully that’s a good sign?

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u/AngelAnatomy Nov 26 '22

And for all of the unplayable nonsense that is Gen 9, I fucking love the new pokemon. So many leaps and bounds better than the new sword and shield mons

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u/rcoelho14 Nov 26 '22

So many leaps and bounds better than the new sword and shield mons

I feel that Sw/Sh Pokémons were amazing. Except the starters and legendaries (base game, didn't play the DLC). Loved all the designs.
Also been loving the new designs too, I feel they are stepping up when it comes to new Pokémon

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u/gibbie420 Nov 25 '22

I think all the games should just be new Mons until the post game.

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u/Neirchill Nov 26 '22

That's exactly what people hated about black and white. They were, in my opinion, one of the best games with some of the best new Pokemon ever introduced but people really hated that they couldn't get their favorite Pokemon until after finishing the game.

BW2 remedied that situation, but that is exactly why in x and y it had so few new Pokemon and relied heavily on past favorites, especially gen 1.

While I do love black and white, I'd like for all Pokemon to be available before post game just so I have maximum options on team building for replayability. In my current run of scarlet and violet I pretty strictly stuck to new Pokemon because they're the most interesting part but I do plan on doing at least one more run at some point where I get whoever I feel like playing with. If that's Gyarados for the hundredth time then so be it.

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u/Gorgii98 Nov 25 '22

Idk maybe a handful of returning mons could be thrown into each game, as long as it's not too many.

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u/LeoRex286 Nov 25 '22

My dream is to have a region that’s all new Pokémon and regional variants, which I think is a great addition and a fun way to have old Pokémon but with a twist. But I’ve accepted that’s not likely to ever happen.

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u/TheBlueSuperNova Nov 25 '22

Idk, I felt like that for the first couple generations after 5 but now there are so many Pokémon idk how much more they should keep expanding it. It’s nice to me to have access to older generations. Maybe they could work on having all Pokémon accessible at some point but not sure how that would look

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u/SonicFlash01 Zipzapflap Nov 25 '22

It's not exactly randomized which come back, though. Some popular ones return all the time, making me get sick of them, where I might appreciate some deep cuts making an appearance.

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u/kingjoe64 Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

I love old species, I just wish they would've came up with regionals back in Gen 5 so the games would've had better reception via familiar faces (e.g. "Alolan" Rattata or Grimer could've fit really well in an NYC themed region) and maybe GF would've had more fun designing Pokémon the last 15 years

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u/Annonymous_97 Nov 25 '22

That's honestly one of the things I loved about Gen 5, only having access to new mons. One of my favorite parts about a new generation is getting to see the new creatures that they came up with, so I personally couldn't relate to that outrage. And while I don't mind having old ones around, I've tended to lean on them too much. I've raised waaay too many Garedvoirs and Eeveelutions across too many gens haha

My personal challenge in my Gen 9 playthrough is to only use new mons

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u/SGKurisu Nov 25 '22

Vast majority of people wouldn't and I think they learned their lesson since Black 2 immediately pivoted back towards having way more older mons, plus every Gen since then being quite heavy in having them or new forms.

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u/Gears_Of_None Silverware Nov 25 '22

Why gen 1 specifically?

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u/Zevyu Nov 25 '22

Nostalgia.

Because gen 1 is the gen a lot of people started with.

It's the gen with Mewtwo, Charizard and Pikachu, you know, the 3 pokemon that GF likes to pander too. I'm honestly surprised Mewtwo didn't get a G-max form in Sw/Sh.

Also during the gen 5 time, the genwunners were going HAM on the gen 5 hate.

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u/Mijumaru1 Nov 25 '22

God I remember that. People constantly acted like the entirety of gen 5 was awful because Trubbish and Vanillite existed (both are good designs and I will die on that hill)

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u/Zevyu Nov 25 '22

I mean, by that logic, gen 1 is awful because grimer and voltorb existed.

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u/yuhanz Nov 25 '22

In gen 1 imo, voltorb was a great design as a pseudo mimic. Electrode tho…

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u/3163560 Nov 25 '22

Always had a soft spot for electrode because he looked like krillin

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u/adum_korvic Pokemon Stunfisk TruePokemon Nov 26 '22

I suddenly like electrode wtf

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u/Zevyu Nov 25 '22

Oh yeah, the mimic idea was prety cool, i'll give them that.

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u/OuchPotato64 Nov 26 '22

Pokemon was a game before it became anything else. Voltorb was intended to be a mimic, which were in a lot of Japanese games in the 90s

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u/BrilliantTreacle9996 Nov 26 '22

The only things I can say against them is that the Vanillite line probably should have only been two stages. It doesn't feel like Icecream->More icecream->morer icecream deserves that many dex slots.

Klang's line also feels a bit underwhelming. Tho that was them not pushing the gimmick hard enough. It should have gotten a mega in gen 6 that made it like, into a legit warmachine, that still incorporated the basic gears as part of an increasingly arcane machine.

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u/smokinnic_suckindic Nov 25 '22

I enjoyed B&W as a kid but I remember being frustrated for the lack of familiarity like you. A few years ago I got my copy of B2 and had SOOOOOO much fun… I played it in all of my free time for a month straight to complete it, then sent my full team up through the bank from my 3DS and into Shield. The game was an absolute blast

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u/maussius Nov 25 '22

Thank you for your honesty

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u/AutumnLiteratist Nov 25 '22

This was me too. Hated Black. Thought it was barebones on content (lmao) and didn't like the restrictiveness of only getting Unova pokemon until postgame. Completley skipped B2W2 until after...OR/AS?

I would kick past-me if I could. Gen 5 is my absolute standout favourite now; both the first two and the sequels.

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u/Leidaans Nov 25 '22

Tbh, despite being in gen 5’s corner from day 1, I can’t fault people for falling off at that point. The games just came at a bad time. They were DS games releasing after the 3ds was out, and dropped at the peak of pokefatigue.

I’m just happy that people have gone back and given them another go, and mostly had a good time.

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u/TheFacca Nov 25 '22

Yeah, everyone who changed their mind usually was because of their nostalgia on gen 1 ~ 4 not being present there.

Thinking the same thing would happen to Gen 6 to 9 is such a hard copium, people's issues with these games aren't as simple as "why isn't charizard in my pokeman game?"

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u/another_bug Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

They were great games. I just wasn't comfortable having NO familiar pokemon available.

I think that is what did it for BW1. It threw a lot of people off, and IMO even in retrospect the designs were a bit different in their style. But once you get over that, they were great. Or at the very least, BW2 were good enough to make up for BW1.

I think this, partially anyway, explains the difference between their reception on release vs now.

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u/javierm885778 Nov 25 '22

Completely annecdotical, but as a kid, BW broke the connection with the franchise for many people I knew, so BW2 was mostly ignored, even mocked as a cashgrab by my friends, even when it was the least cashgrabby "third version" we'd seen to this day even.

So while BW2 "fixed" a lot of what made BW hated, I think a lot of people didn't play it on release due to the BW connection.

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u/Link1112 Nov 25 '22

Same here. I really hated the mons. The world was really cool but the Pokémon were so bad to me.

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u/Tabbygail Nov 25 '22

I think the reason we don't see so much B/W hate anymore is that the kids who were 10-12 (pokemon's target demographic) when black and white came out have grown up and are now 18-25, which is the demographic that dominates social media. The people who were 18-25 in 2011 (who likely started with RBY or GSC) are older now, have full time jobs and families, and aren't playing/talking about games online as much. The B/W kids have displaced the RBY kids on social media, just as one day the S/V kids will displace us.

I think we're seeing the Gen 7 games go through this process now- popular opinion on sun and moon is much more positive than it was on release, but there are still a lot of detractors who haven't burned themselves out

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u/schachspanner Nov 25 '22

As a Gen 1 kid, the two main issues I had with Gen 5 is: 1) I had probably the least disposable income I will ever have in my life. I was paying for my own food for the first time in my life, and a gen with FOUR games was a huge cost. I admit, I pirated 3/4 games. 2) it felt like a soft reboot. No familiar pokemon. A huge regional dex, a lot of which felt like filler. And two rivals whose introduction consists of them trashing your room. As a first year at uni, it was too real. I wonder if part of the gen 9 hate is gen 5 kids hitting the same stage.

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u/Daphrey Nov 26 '22

I dunno, the games on a technical level are just worse though.

The only games I am really nostalgia blind for are all of gen 4, at the time I only minimally played B/W and only recently played B/W2. The games are so, so much better than gen 8/9. In so many ways the games are just better. I was definitely dissapointed by hype for sw/sh, and as such my opinion may soften over time, but I already had low expectations for s/v, and the game seemed to treat those low expectations as a challenge.

I really don't get this whole thing with people acting as if these games will be heralded in a few years. They will have a reneisance at some point, the games aren't that irredeemable, but they just aren't very good. Arceus is and will be highly considered because it is a fundamentally good game. Despite all the issues its got stuff going for it. Sw/sh and s/v just have too many problems.

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u/Spacemn5piff Nov 25 '22

Black and white was hated for deliberate choices in:

  • Pokemon availability

  • art style

  • Pokemon design

Just to name a few.

S/V are not generally hated for any of those reasons other than availability which is more of a series issue now than a specific title issue what with dexit sticking around.

The main reasons s/v are getting hated would be their performance and heavy removal of fluff not integral to the main story and post game activities.

To be more specific, s/v are mostly hated for:

  • low and unstable framerates

  • low quality animations for NPCs and Mons in the over world

  • major technical flaws including but not limited to the game actually slowing down when frames drop

  • misleading promotion of the open world model

Black and white was hated for things that were in most cases up to taste. And while you can somewhat say the same for s/v nobody will take you seriously if you say you prefer the sub 20fps versus the Arceus experience. It's just a dumb claim.

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u/Shiny_Kelp Nov 25 '22 Gold Heart Scale

People really do be thinking that every game has been unanimously hated on release since BW when that couldn't be further from the truth.

XY were massively praised as far as I remember. Only complaints I remember were some megas looking like digimon ripoffs or a disdain for the new fairy type, but even those weren't all that common.

ORAS did get some backlash due to the battle frontier cut and the infamous "kids are too busy playing mobile games" Masuda interview. Other than that, also praised.

SM had the entire community hyped as shit all the way to release, and even after release the complaints were a minority. I would know because I myself was part of that minority. Any criticism other than the hand-holdiness was met by "well at least they're trying something different".

USUM is what really started itching people's nerves. The game was 90% base SM even though they were marketed as "sequels with a brand new story" so more peopel than usual were disappointed in them.

Really it was around the late SM -> USUM-LGPE era where the gen 5 praise picked up steam and the community started calling out Game Freak's decaying quality.

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u/-Mez- Nov 25 '22

Agreed.

Especially in USUM's case marketing hurt it the most imo. They pitched it as way more than it was and tried to justify doing another 2 version release instead of just having a singular 3rd version that rounded everything out. When in reality the game was good but it was nowhere near a brand new story since you had to play through a lot of the same content to get to the new stuff near the end of the game. And playing through those tutorials takes so long.

The games going to the switch really changed the general sentiment of things though. Stuff like the price increases due to being switch games instead of 3DS games and dexit have compounded to make people question if what was promised is actually being fulfilled with every new release. Skepticism like that didn't really come up as often previously.

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u/YoImAli Nov 25 '22

Nailed it

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u/nick2473got Nov 25 '22

The game was 90% base SM even though they were marketed as "sequels with a brand new story" so more peopel than usual were disappointed in them.

Tbf they marketed it as an alternate / expanded version, they even called it a director's cut. I never once heard them say it was a sequel, literally any pre-release footage of the game showed that it wasn't.

USUM was just a 3rd version split in two.

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u/Blayro You might as well call me PUN-ichan Nov 25 '22

USUM is what really started itching people's nerves. The game was 90% base SM even though they were marketed as "sequels with a brand new story" so more peopel than usual were disappointed in them.

Honestly USUM are, in my opinion, completely superior to SM. The issue is that the games are too similar, unnecessarily so.

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u/justinhanks Nov 26 '22

I agree with you, but I recall XY receiving a lot of criticism for the Exp Share and generally being too easy.

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u/DrSavitski Nov 25 '22

I never hated Gen 5.. tbh, after I was disapointed in Gen 4, it’s actually Black and White that got me back into Pokémon. I remember walking by them on the shelf at Walmart (before I worked there) and thinking “oh, there’s a new Pokémon game? Guess I’ll ask my mom for it”

Then Black and White 2 got my best friend back into the series as well

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u/AznOmega Nov 25 '22

At college, I noticed someone playing Black and White. When I got a 3DS, I got Pokemon Black and it got me back into Pokemon.

It is still my favorite generation, I would say X/Y suffered from unused potential.

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u/DrSavitski Nov 25 '22

When X/Y came out I pulled an all nighter and absolutely loved the game! It was in my top 5. At that point it was my 2nd favorite behind R/S/E. I’ve come to realize B/W is better lol

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u/RaysFTW Nov 25 '22

I wasn’t a fan of D/P back then and I’m still not today. My biggest issue is that with all the Pokémon at it’s disposal, D/P somehow had worse Pokémon variety than R/B, pre-postgame. Imo, it was one of the worst directions GF ever made.

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u/Someguy0328 Nov 25 '22

I didn’t get to the point of falling off of Pokémon , but Gen 4 was the least fun that younger me had playing a Pokémon game (mainly due to the slowness). I’ll add the major caveat that I never played Platinum. In comparison, I enjoyed Gen 5 quite a bit, and was absolutely fine with the new Pokémon in it (though I never got to play B2W2). It wasn’t my favorite gen, but it definitely helped refresh the enjoyment of playing a Pokémon game.

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u/enseminator Nov 26 '22

Seeing someone refer to Black and White as "way back when"... holy smokes. Am I really that old now?

I remember when the first English version of Red and Blue came out, for the original Gameboy 🤣

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u/RaysFTW Nov 25 '22

What’s with this sub and thinking that everyone from B/W days are the same people today? There’s a very good chance that the active people in this sub were not around on Reddit or other forums when B/W were released.

OP and comments are pointing out the injustice of Person B changing their opinions from Person A when they are different people altogether.

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u/dekgear Nov 25 '22

The only hate I remember from those days was from the Pokemon designs themselves, and maybe the decision to not include most of the old Pokemon, not really about anything about the gameplay or bugs.

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u/Narananas Nov 26 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

Absolutely, online I only remember it being icecream this, garbage that. Then people would say genwunners and point out bad Gen 1 pokemon.

These comments give an idea of changing attitudes since then, but I wonder if people look more fondly on the Unova pokemon now.

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u/I_Love_Ampharos Nov 25 '22

X and Y are very ok games but a Z could have been the best in the franchise pretty handily.

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u/Link1112 Nov 25 '22

I remember the rumours about the train leading to Kalos neighbour region and Z having a post-game like GSC.

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u/NotRed9282 Nov 25 '22

Well we know that Paldea is based in Spain, so we can only assume the top right portion would be Kalos geographically if it was accurate to the real world. If the DLC for SV opens up this area, it could help flesh out Kalos more if that is the case

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u/Supersnow845 Nov 26 '22

That’s just the same argument people used to say the train went south in the original map of SWSH so we’d go on the “Eurostar” to a kalos DLC

Sure the train south actually did go to the DLC area but I don’t think using the geographical locations of the real world inspirations of regions is going to tell us anything about DLC

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u/RaysFTW Nov 25 '22

Lol that’s a pretty big assumption, tbf. Everything we think would’ve made Z great is purely speculation and fan theories. Historically, all that stuff just makes fans disappointed when games don’t live up to preconceived hype.

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u/DrogoOmega Nov 25 '22

Considering the improvements Emerald and Platinum had made, it’s a no brainer to think Z would have been better and a great addition. I was annoyed we never got one. Still am.

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u/ApophisRises Nov 25 '22

100% agree with this. This has always been the case for the games in some form or another. Same with the Anime.

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u/Savthatsit Nov 25 '22

Same! I remember when the Sun and Moon anime came out! People were pissed!

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u/Deadtaor33 Nov 25 '22

That Litten story was heartbreaking and one of the best stories in the Anime!

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u/Tsukuyomi56 Embrace Darkness Nov 25 '22

The segment where Litten mourns for Stoutland’s passing never fails to make me tear up when I see it.

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u/Silly_Snails Nov 25 '22

On rewatch it's definitely Stoutland teaching Litten to use Fire Fang.

The episode shows a tree losing its leaves to represents Soutland's life coming to an end. But methinks the symbolism goes deeper : when Soutland shows Fire Fang to Litten, they knock a leaf out of the tree, symbolizing Stoutland using their last bit of strength for Litten.

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u/Deadtaor33 Nov 25 '22

Was watching it with my Partner and i knew what was coming as soon as it showed the leaves on the tree leading into the Fire Fang training. My Partner did not see it coming lol

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u/Neos472 dragon type fan Nov 25 '22

for real that story came to me right when I was dealing with the passing of my father so it hit home on so many levels I just resonated a lot with Litten then.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

Have people been praising the Gen 5 anime recently? From what I’ve seen it’s still considered one of the show’s weaker periods.

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u/umathuman Nov 25 '22

Nah that's still considered meh IIRC.

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u/AbbyWasThere Nov 25 '22

The anime where Ash loses the league to a guy who only brought 5 Pokémon to a 6v6 battle because his Riolu deus ex evolved will never not be mid.

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u/bongowasd Nov 26 '22

I personally enjoyed every mainline game until the dex cut. They had their issues, but almost all of those issues were not present during the post game where you spent 99% of your playtime.

To me these games are half as good as Sun/Moon because of it. There is outright less for me to do here than in Sun/Moon.

Just give me a Pokémon Colosseum game that has literally every form of battling and uses my Pokémon home for my teams. That's literally it, I'd actually accept the dex cuts if that existed. Alpha megas and Z-move Palafin? FUCK YES!!!!

Add whatever bullshit restrictions you want for ranked, just let me enjoy the variety this game once had with friends again.

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u/ReFluff Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

I wish this line of thinking would fade away tbh.

Pretty silly to assume that the positive opinions you see nowadays are from people only “pretending” to have always liked it. The opinions you see comes from literally millions of people. Maybe those toxic people from BW just moved on from Pokemon, or mellowed out. Maybe your social media habits have changed and you avoid more toxic forums and interactions.

Black and White released 12 years ago, is the only possibility really that the fandom consists of hypocrites?

Or maybe those people actually did always like the game, and using people’s positive opinions to paint a fandom as hypocrites is really disrespectful?

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u/yanderekittie Nov 25 '22

The kids who grew up on Gen 5 are adults now too. They’re probably 50% of the people showing love for Unova

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u/IWasTooSlowSteam Nov 25 '22

I'm one of them. I was 8 years old when BW came out in NA, now I'm in college.

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u/Aonswitch Nov 25 '22

People only didn’t like gen 5 because they made you use new Pokémon. Whenever I play a new gen I ONLY use new Pokémon so it was perfect for me. I remember my mom taking me to GameStop after school and getting roasted on forums for liking it.

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u/Morganelefay Nov 25 '22

Nah, there are some other reasons to dislike gen 5. To me the big one was the utter lack of choice before the third gym, with some of the early 'mons being so crap that even for in-game they were just no fun to use (looking at you Purrloin). On top of that, for a gen that tried to be "Everything is NEW" it had a few too many obvious expies of gen 1 'mons.

I also personally thought scrapping follower pokemon right after Heartgold/Soulsilver was a bit of a stupid move.

It did have a lot of good stuff though, but there are more reasons other than "there's no old stuff".

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u/TSPhoenix Nov 26 '22

If BW were your first Pokémon games growing up there is no reason not to love them, they were solid games, probably the most refined take on the Pokémon formula to date. But as someone who was getting tired of how formulaic things had become a game that was pure formula and essentially a soft reboot, it left me feeling like I was unlikely to be interested in the franchise's future. It's biggest strength as a game was for me it's biggest weakness as a longtime fan.

I went spoiler free on Gen 5 and I'm glad I did, I did enjoy it but my enthusiasm for the fully "new" roster was heavily dampened by how many of them were blatant 1:1 stand-ins for Gen 1 evolution lines. Also the reusable TM system I think ended up undermining the new roster. Natural learnsets and type coverage are important considerations when adding a Pokémon to your roster in previous generations, but in Gen 5 Pokémon it makes more sense to choose Pokémon based on TM compatibility causing the new roster to end up having blatant winners and losers in terms of usability.

People talk about the story as something that makes BW stand above previous games, but they softballed the themes they raised so hard they may as well not have bothered raising them at all. The series about catching and battling monsters was never going to conclude that catching and battling monsters is bad actually.

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u/TheJakeanator272 Nov 25 '22

Well if it makes you feel better, I played black and white for the first time about a year ago and it’s my least favorite game by far.

I wasn’t able to play them because I never had a DS growing up. I started on red as my first game.

I am always a person that will use the new Pokémon in a game no matter what. But I could not get past the regional dex in the game. The beginning of the game was so grueling to get through because everyone just had the same 7 or 8 Pokémon on rotation. Not having previous gen Pokémon really narrowed down the variety and made it uninteresting. Also, as a grass starter guy, I didn’t know there would be literally one fire type to choose from besides the starter. And those monkeys suck.

I don’t think Scarlet and Violet are bad games as far as gameplay goes. I’m enjoying them a good bit. The performance is inexcusable though. The frame rates and textures are pretty terrible.

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u/TheMannWithThePan honorary poképal Nov 26 '22

I don't these are mostly the same people. Like, from my perspective, I didn't really like gen 5 then, and I don't now. People who liked it at the time are now just the people who dominate the discourse now, and the same was true for people like me back then.

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u/Earthbnd Puff!!! Nov 25 '22

I have a soft spot for x and y. I know the single player campaign is probably the worst of all mainline games, but the online features they added at the time took the series to a whole other level. X and Y was the generation where I was playing with all my classmates in high school at once for the first time, it was soooo sick. The lack of online community to interact with really makes x and y feel even more content-less, despite it being the game I spent the most time playing with friends.

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u/whippedalcremie Nov 25 '22

Gen5 came out at a really awkward time in the franchise where the original fans were in college, before Pokemon Go brought the franchise roaring back into public consciousness and before original fans started having kids of their own. It was seen as cool on the internet to hate big franchise properties, anything indie was king. Then came the 3D games that had objective performance lag that made the 2D games much more appealing in retrospect.

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u/HolypenguinHere Nov 25 '22

Now, everyone is acting like they’ve been on board since day one.

No they're not. Different people, different times. Posts like these are silly. People really encounter 100 angry fans online and assume that they represent the millions of fans of the games who don't rage online because they enjoy the games.

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u/SpaceTaco27 I ❤️ Unova Nov 26 '22

👆this is correct. I didn’t become a Pokémon fan until Gen 6, I think X was the first one I played if memory serves. So I obviously wasn’t aware of any of the BW debate when it was actually happening. But later, I went back and played every mainline game in the series. And when I got around to playing Gen 5 they were my favorite, in my personal opinion. It has nothing to do with me trying to manipulate history or saying “I told you so”. I just really enjoyed those games, man.

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u/Serapius Nov 25 '22

I was starting college when BW hit shelves. While I loved the games, you’re right that a huge portion of the online community lambasted them upon release from what I saw.

It really just seems like sometime within the last four or five years that people have started to speak more fondly of gen 5 as a whole.

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u/Darbs504 Nov 25 '22

I remember hating Black and White when they realeased. So much so that Black and White 2 are the only mainline games I haven't played

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u/Calophon Nov 25 '22

No. I have not seen people say B+W were incredible em mass, other than people who always liked them from the beginning. I did not like them when they came out and I still do not like them. I dislike most Unova Pokémon, but some have grown on me.

People aren’t trying to rewrite history. I think it’s more likely that the people who liked the bad games stuck around because the quality hasn’t really gone up since, and the people who trash talked the games have since left. The echo chamber favors those who praise the echo chamber.

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u/Kae04 Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

It's almost like the fandom is a large and fluid collective of people and not one big hivemind... Of course the general opinion of games waxes and wanes over time.

BW and BW2 are the only Pokemon games (until recently) I've not bought. Sun and Moon are the only Pokemon games I've owned that I haven't bothered to finish. My opinion hasn't changed but the general opinion of the fandom has because the people that stuck around are generally the ones with fonder memories of the more recent releases.

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u/Thadrea Nov 25 '22

Gen 5 introduced a lot of new ideas. Unfortunately, a lot of those ideas like triple battles and the Dream World were either clunky or just not fun.

The fact that there were also no non-Unova Pokémon until the post-game was also sort of a bummer for long time players. Player knowledge about types and abilities was largely thrown out the window since all of the Pokémon you encountered were new.

Gen 5 has aged well, though-- B2/W2 were better received, triple battles were not continued in the main series and have gone from being an annoyance to something of a novelty. The Dream World has also been shut down, so the need to participate in that to get OP hidden abilities is no longer a factor.

In a sense, for Gen 5, the community's collective memory has shifted over time as the biggest pain points have gone away or at least ceased to be the center of attention.

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u/Golden-Owl Top-u Kek-o Nov 25 '22

I’ve stood firmly on the side of disliking XY since day 1, and still do to this day

That game started out so amazingly cool but then went goddamn nowhere after Korrina’s gym. The difficulty was utterly nonexistent. I can’t recall a single enjoyable battle in that.

Another 5 years will pass and I’ll still dislike it. Though I do adore Megas and was disappointed to see them gone

Same for BW and BW2. I sunk over a hundred hours into each because I just loved the story and exploring Unova. It felt like it was truly a huge step forward towards a traditional JRPG. Which made me hate XY so much more afterward

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u/primalmaximus Nov 25 '22

Imagine if we didn't get access to Mega evolution until after we fought Korrina's Mega Lucario with just the base Lucario we received. Sort of like a "Let's show you how powerful Mega Evolution is by completely curb stomping you."

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u/3163560 Nov 25 '22

Didn't later gym leaders in XY have Pokemon that only knew 2-3 moves as well?

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u/notwiththeflames Nov 26 '22

Yeah, X and Y were the games that started the incomplete movepools trend.

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u/Sunsurg_e Nov 25 '22

Nobody has forgotten Black and White hate, that’s just a plain lie. Has Black and White had a total second coming in terms of fandom popularity? 100%.

But I see plenty of people who admit they didn’t like it upon release and have changed their tune or people who didn’t like the OG games but enjoyed BW2 a lot more.

And quite personally Black and White are still my least favorite of the games (Sun and Moon being a close second), soooo I personally disagree with the second coming, but I don’t see people acting as if they were on board day one.

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u/YourIntIsOne Nov 25 '22

This is the case for every new game that comes out.

Though to be fair, Gen 5 remains my least favorite Gen. But I enjoyed Kalos and Alola despite everyone else seemingly hating them.

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u/Golden-Owl Top-u Kek-o Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

I’m kinda bummed people disliked Alola. I personally really loved it. Though I do feel SM is way better than Ultra (It felt rather unneeded)

I don’t think I’ll ever not dislike Kalos. That region was a snoozefest. But Megas were mad hype, so I’ll give it that

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u/Ivy_lane_Denizen Nov 25 '22

X/Y (interchangably with ORAS, I suppose) are my favorite pokemon games. (Ive played all but gen 5 and gen 4 remakes)

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u/Gears_Of_None Silverware Nov 25 '22

I like Alola, but the constant stopping and starting is annoying.

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u/linus140 Nov 25 '22

I could be wrong, but I think a lot of the Gen 7 hate comes from the fact USUM were the second set of games and basically remakes of SM with some different content but basically the same game.

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u/notwiththeflames Nov 26 '22

Things probably would have been better if they were a single game and had some Emerald-esque choices - ergo choosing between Solgaleo and Lunala like you could with Latios and Latias.

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u/nerfzacian Nov 25 '22

I really loved Alola but I don’t think I could ever replay it. I don’t have the same patience now as I did when I was 14

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u/Wrinkled_giga_brain Nov 25 '22

I love alola, it just hurts to replay with the constant interruptions. But when someone uses issues like that to hold against a game i don't think it is really fair to say a game is bad because it is difficult to replay.

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u/greenPotate Gen 8 was good Nov 25 '22

Yeah I loved Alola a ton and SuMo definitely one of my favorites with a fun cast and story. Kalos I'd struggle to recall anybody that isn't Lysandre and I can't recall much of the region location wise besides Eiffel tower.

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u/I_Love_Ampharos Nov 25 '22

uSuM are an absolute slog for me

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u/GoldenVoltZ Nov 25 '22

It’s insane watching individual people fall for this because my opinions on each Gen literally have not changed from when I first played them. None of you mfs are ever going to convince me SwSh were good and the people claiming XY are the new best in the series are insane.

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u/Agent010203 Nov 25 '22

I never played Black and White 1, but I did play both Black and White 2 on release. The only other pokemon game I’d beaten up to that point was Soul Silver (got stuck in Diamond) so I really loved them. But then X and Y came out and I instantly fell in love with Y. It has been my all time favorite pokemon game since the release.

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u/Gears_Of_None Silverware Nov 25 '22

I was still a kid when BW/BW2 came out, they are very nostalgic games for me and I've loved them since day one. They do have their flaws though, I don't like the limited roster or the gen 1 clones personally.

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u/JallerHCIM Nov 25 '22

black and white was super alienating to me as I'd just had my copy of heartgold stolen, where my entire ruby, leafgreen, and pearl collection had been compiled, only to find that none of them were even present in the new game.

I dropped white for a couple years until the X and Y hype train began and I replayed all the previous games. at this point, white and especially white 2 absolutely rocked my world and I couldn't believe how reviled they were. been chasing the high of that white 2 run ever since, the series has never quite topped it, but I adore Alpha Sapphire and Moon

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u/ZombearXD Nov 25 '22

Don’t think I’ve ever actually hated a Pokémon game 🤷🏻‍♂️ just happy when I get to play a new adventure 😊

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u/MayanMan2012 Nov 26 '22

If it helps, I still don’t like Black & White

Weirdly, the one thing I did love from the start was that it only contained new pokémon!

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u/raypkm Nov 25 '22

I could write a whole dissertation about how the reception to BW changed the course of the franchise forever. It felt like being a Pokémon fan at the time was the hardest it ever was. I cannot tell you how much I appreciated and loved Gen V as a whole. I guess it depended a lot on how old you were; I was around 14 so the more mature story telling and fresh take really resonated with me. For “Genwunners” it did not

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u/Narrow-Gas9493 Nov 25 '22

I like to compare BW to the Star Wars prequel movies. Everyone hated them when they came out but here we are, years later we have people who grew up on them now defending them on the internet and those who lambasted them are trying to use rose colored glasses to act like they were not the same ones who hated them.

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u/sertroll Nov 25 '22

I think X and Y are past the relative time from BW where they started getting praise

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