r/pokemon Nov 17 '22 Silver 2 Gold 1 Helpful 1 Wholesome 1

Scarlet and Violet are rough Discussion / Venting

Just want to start off by saying I’m a huge Pokémon fan. I have been since generation 1 and never really stopped playing it. I’ve played every mainline title and even both all editions of every generation.

I’m by no means a graphics or framerate snob.. but these games are so rough. I managed to get my copies early and I just cannot shake off the feeling of disappointment, at least in the technical department. I’ve only really played the games in docked mode so far but the resolution is low, textures are poor, animations aren’t really a step up from SwSh and the framerate is choppy/inconsistent. I think with this and just my low opinion on BDSP, I’m starting to lose faith in this franchise finally 😅

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u/DialZforZebra Nov 17 '22

The impression I am getting is that the team working on Gen 10 need about 4 years of just working on it. No other projects, start from the ground up and just refine it.

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u/JamesLikesIt Nov 18 '22

I really wonder how much of it is gamefreak vs the pressure from Nintendo/Pokémon company/whoever to keep the games going to tie in with all of their other merch. I’m not defending Gamefreak (cause I don’t know any details about their internal development) but I feel like they either don’t have the time/resources given to them for proper development, or they just really don’t care and do the minimum. Honestly it’s probably some mix of both, maybe even bad management. Either way, for the amount of money Pokemon makes, these games could/should be so much more creative and polished

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u/DessaB Nov 18 '22

Nintendo doesnt have a reputation for rushing a release if it's not up to a standard. If Nintendo was involved with this, they would have held it back another year or assigned a new team to it.

This is all gamefreak

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u/Ipokeyoumuch Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

Well it the trend holds, the team that is working on SV will be spearheading Gen 10. That is because the A team handles the new games while, while they have junior developers handle the remakes, side games and Legends Arceus. Seems like to me GameFreak may not have an environment that allows their younger and more creative developers to flourish using their tools. Gamefreak has good ideas but very meh execution since the transition to 3D, but at least the 3DS games were not too notible with the performance drops, at not bad enough to ruin the experience.

Edit: as of SWSh the trend of Team A leading the way may not as true as I thought. It was the junior team handling Legends, SWSh and likely SV since while SWSH was being made Team A made ... Little Town Hero.

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u/turmspitzewerk garbage Nov 18 '22

hate to break it to you, but "team B" have been the ones handling the main series now. "team A" fucked off to go make little town hero and left SWSH to the noobies. then they came back to make PLA, while team B started work on SV.

LGPE is likely where the switch happened, team A wanted to do other things besides make the same pokemon games over and over again; so LGPE was made to fill in as that year's obligatory holiday release.

side note, its also likely that BDSP only exists to have something on shelves; because PLA didn't make the cut for the holiday season. just some complete third party shovelware crap to cash in on the demand for gen 4 remakes that fans had been asking for for 5 years.

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u/10secondmessage Nov 18 '22

If they were smart they would have done two cartiage with all the other games emulated for switch on it. Easy 100 plus bucks a fan. Throw in a third with the other mystery dungeons etc. Easiest money they could make while making fans give some Leaway for time and projects.

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u/DMindisguise Nov 18 '22

imho 4 years wouldn't be enough just look at how long mainstream Zelda and Mario games take. Pokemon should be held to those standards.

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u/Fire_is_beauty Nov 18 '22

Sometimes, I wish Game Freak went back to 2d.

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u/SandoVillain Nov 18 '22

I get the feeling they do too. 3D is clearly not their forte.

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u/DaOldie Nov 17 '22

In terms of actual game development, gamefreak has to be one of the worst out there. The franchise carries the developer

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u/pmmerandom Nov 17 '22

They’re trying to do the absolute bare minimum and they’re still barely scraping by

the name Pokemon is literally carrying everything

imagine how good life would be if we had a competent and passionate game studio in charge of making the games

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u/RathVelus Nov 17 '22

But they’re absolutely absolved by sales. They have zero financial motivation to care. I don’t know what the answer is.

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u/YARGLE_IS_MY_DAD Nov 18 '22

Because the truth is, this sub represents the most enfranchised fans who are in reality a small fraction of the entire fanbase. Majority of sales are going to be made by 10 year olds who don't give a shit about fps or optimization.

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u/MerelyFlowers Nov 18 '22

The thing with kids, though, is that you have to keep selling the franchise to each new generation. And today's 10 year olds were born in 2012. They have had tablets their entire lives, and the franchises that have succeeded in that market are all much prettier and more polished than the last two mainline Pokemon games. If Gamefreak wants this generation to buy into a game with graphics that look more like they belong in 2012 than 2022, they're going to have a hard time.

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u/Conradical27 Nov 18 '22

You say this like the recent games haven't sold just as much like gangbusters as the old ones have, sometimes even more. Kids don't care.

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u/RathVelus Nov 18 '22

SwSh flew off the shelves. You’re right. They don’t care.

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u/millenniumpianist Nov 18 '22

Yeah, I don't know how well this generalizes, but my cousin's children are quite into Pokemon, especially the oldest one. I got them Sw/Sh for Xmas (don't remember which one); I was 4 when I started playing Pokemon Red, so I figured they were old enough (4-8) to fall in love with the series.

I'm pretty sure they never really touched the game. They definitely were less enthusiastic than I expected to receive it as a gift! I'm honestly not sure how these kids got into Pokemon (the anime?) or if they're like other kids, but they just didn't have much interest in the games.

I think they have access to too much other content to care about Pokemon games. Note that Sw/Sh could've been the best game ever and it wouldn't have changed the fact that afaict they didn't have any desire to play the games. They had access to Minecraft and random tablet games and such.

I dunno though, surely not all kids are like that

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u/beldaran1224 Nov 18 '22

Definitely not every kid, but it's not that rare. Pokémon is a massive franchise, and plenty of kids only care about one or two parts of it. They may love collecting the cards and be ambivalent towards anything else.

Do they play more traditional games at all, really? (Excluding Minecraft and mobile style games.)

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u/DrummerDKS Nov 18 '22

I can promise you, as an uncle of a 22 and 9 year old, they just like the Pokémon part and have never at any point given a shit about graphics.

Pokémon games will continue to sell amazing despite how much it hurts Reddit’s feelings or logic, they will continue to thrive.

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u/zombiifissh Nov 18 '22

Tbh I couldn't care less about the graphics in any game, let alone a Pokemon game where things aren't realistic to begin with.

I just want a solid game with good gameplay, story, and exploration :(

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u/GreenHeronVA Nov 18 '22

Well said. My 10-year-old son is having trouble going to sleep right now because he’s so excited about getting his copy of Violet tomorrow. he’s not going to care in the slightest about frame rate and stuff like that. And I bought both copies so him and I could play. So there’s the sales.

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u/tyrannosaurus_r Nov 18 '22

I don't know how far down that runs, though. Those 10 year old kids won't be repeat customers after the first game that burns them.

If Sc/Vi run at a 15fps slideshow like some of the reports say, then kids are going to dislike it. My godson, all of 10, already said to me when I showed him the trailer that it looked "ugly" and "broken" (he likened it to when a glitch happens in Garry's Mod, which I also got him into-- go figure). He was super hyped for PLA, and suddenly, when I asked him if he wanted Sc/Vi for the holidays, told me he wasn't really that interested.

Whether that's a trend writ large, I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to get that for the kids who get the games this holiday season, they may be less inclined to do so for the next one if their experience isn't great.

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u/MASTODON_ROCKS Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 19 '22

Agree, people don't give kids enough credit when they say stuff like "they're more interested in the cute" or whatever. It's patronizing, I've been playing games since I was 5 and I can sure as shit tell you I've been annoyed by poor optimization under the age of 10.

I couldn't tell you a thing about framerate or resolution or stutter but I still knew when a game felt cheap and jank. A kid that's played BOTW is going to notice a difference.

It bums me out that there's a very realistic chance S&V will be a first gaming experience for some people.

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u/Micromadsen Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

As much as I would like to see a proper high quality AAA production Pokemon game, that ain't happening when they can do bare minimum and still get huge profit. That wouldn't change no matter which company made it.

Why would anyone care about the quality, if the fans just buy it anyway.

Least they can still make fun/entertaining designs.

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u/FriedCammalleri23 hot monke best monke Nov 17 '22

People complain about 343 being bad for Halo meanwhile Game Freak may genuinely be the worst developer for a AAA title out there

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u/normaldude8825 Barely any sanity left Nov 17 '22

Halo fans want Halo given to the original developers. Pokemon fans want Pokemon taken from the original developers. Halo at least improves with patches and updates. Pokemon gets its improvements with a new game (or DLC).

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u/NeitherDistribution0 Nov 18 '22

Halo fans want Halo given to the original developers

No, most Halo fans are comparing the way 343 handled the franchise with the way Bungie handled it. They aren't saying they want the modern Bungie to take over the game.

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u/adanceparty Nov 18 '22

yea forreal, we just don't want 343 to have it. They are garbage. MCC didn't work online for like 5 years. It came to PC after forever and that shit was broken all over again. Halo infinite has had game breaking bugs since launch. Fuck 343, fuck halo now.

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u/tyrannosaurus_r Nov 18 '22

Or, in this case, adds a bunch of new features, dumps some well liked older ones, and does it all while doing the most half-assed technical implementation possible.

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u/NeoSeth Waiting for the return of Misty. Nov 18 '22

Pokemon doesn't even improve with new games.

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u/TheSpiceRat Nov 17 '22

I think the difference is that Pokemon has always been Gamefreak so it is hard to say "Gamefreak ruined Pokemon" when they were also the ones that made Pokemon good.

With Halo, Bungie had an amazing game where even their worst game, Reach, was still a good FPS, but when 343 took over, there was an immediate drop off in the quality of the games. So, there's a clear distinction of "these developers did good and these developers did bad."

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u/Fliibo-97 Nov 18 '22

It speaks volumes that mostly unpaid romhackers who do it for fun make much more balanced, interesting, fun and nuanced games than Game Freak does.

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u/Threeeee3 Nov 17 '22

On a system where the launch title was something as beautiful as Breath of the Wild, there is no excuse to have a game that performs as poorly as this game is said to be 5 years later. I’m hoping there are some performance patches coming in the next few weeks but I’m losing faith in GameFreak

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

a system where the launch title was something as beautiful as Breath of the Wild

I just want to point out the fact that BOTW is a Wii U game, ported over to the Switch as a makeshift launch title. If you do own a Wii U at home, you can buy the Wii U version of BOTW right now, and surprise surprise, you'll see it looks and runs just as fine on a Wii U. Here's a video comparison.

This is all to say that some of these new Pokemon games run like shit even by 2012's standards (the year Wii U was launched).

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u/EMI_Black_Ace Nov 18 '22

Tbf the Wii U version of BotW is utilizing system resources that were not intended for games to use. There's an eDRAM cache that's for Miiverse to stay available in the background, and BotW (and no other game) is given special permission to hijack that cache and use it as a high bandwidth scratchpad for certain effects. Absent that, there's no way the Wii U could handle as much grass or foliage as it's bandwidth starved.

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u/myuusmeow Mew Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

Nintendo does stuff like this. Smash 3DS basically rebooted the system with a minimal OS so the game could use more resources. I wonder if they have any ideas for doing something similar on Switch.

I know they released an update that increased clockspeed while loading some games, but I don't think that's really the same thing. Something like God of War PSP playing at 333MHz instead of the usual 222MHz on would really help out the Switch.

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u/AlbainBlacksteel Best Boi Bulbasaur! Nov 18 '22

Smash 3DS basically rebooted the system with a minimal OS so the game could use more resources.

Oh so that's why it took so long to get to the title screen!

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u/Strider_Hardy Nov 18 '22

Breath of the Wild is a Wii U title, even, lol...

They just don't care.

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u/Jeremithiandiah Nov 18 '22

they have done performances patches as early as x/y, so it should be coming, but it's also never been this bad.

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u/Threeeee3 Nov 18 '22

To me I don’t mind if there are performance patches because it shows they care to some degree, but I really think game freak is just going to let the money roll in and half ass it for the umpteenth time

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u/asatcat III > VII > IV > I > II > V > VI > VIII Nov 18 '22

They never fixed Sword and shield’s performance issues. If there was a patch it wasn’t noticeable

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u/OriginalBiga Nov 17 '22 Helpful

There are a ton of gorgeous games on the Switch. It has nothing to do with the Switch being an underpowered android tablet, because it’s still capable of beautiful visuals and smooth performance. It’s Gamefreak. I don’t know that this is the gen people stop making excuses for the state of these games just because it’s Pokemon, but the day is coming.

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u/Hen_Tye Nov 17 '22

I’m so tired of hearing “it’s a step in the right direction” they’ve walked a fucking marathon in the right direction by now. I just want some effort towards quality and not deadline

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u/Lucienofthelight Nov 17 '22

If it’s a step in the right direction, then everyone else has circumvented the globe in the time it takes them to walk out the house .

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u/GoSuckOnACactus Nov 18 '22

The steps they’re taking right now the industry as a whole took in 2005. I don’t understand why they don’t get people that actually know what they’re doing with 3d. I’m really, really curious about that contract they signed all those years ago, and what exactly can cause TPC/Nintendo to get a new studio.

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u/Tepigg4444 V and III Best Gens Nov 17 '22

gamefreak walks the asymptote that gets closer and closer to "acceptable quality game" without ever reaching it

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u/TrespassersWilliam29 Nov 18 '22

honestly, they seem to be getting farther away...

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u/Hekkst Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

What astounds me the most about Pokemon games is how people will acknowledge the numerous flaws but then they will dismiss them by saying 'its fun'. Yes, of course its fun. Its fun because it is the same game as it was 20 years ago. It was fun then, it is fun now. The matter now is how they have improved on the formula. Are the games bigger? Do we have more pokemon? Is the balance better? Have they added more difficulties? Is the story more gripping? These are all things we should be able to measure the game by. However, pokemon seems to be the only game that regresses in both size and quality upon each new release. We now have less pokemon in the game than we had 5 years ago and the game run worse than how it did in the 3DS.

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u/Nambot Get blue Spheals Nov 18 '22

Precisely. The core unchanged formula of the games catching and battling has never not been fun. This is why people who have no nostalgia for the series, and weren't even alive when the original Red & Blue released can go play a Gen I game and have fun with it.

So long as they don't break that, the games ae still going to be popular and review well, no matter how shit they make everything else.

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u/_Deedee_Megadoodoo_ peekatchoo Nov 17 '22

I still don't understand why they can't make a game that looks like monster hunter stories. It's a very similar style, yet MHS is leaps ahead in terms of... Well, everything. It's really disappointing to read the early reviews :(

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u/SpaceNinja_C Nov 18 '22

Not to mention Dragon Quest XI

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u/moxac777 Nov 17 '22

Game Freak is in that weird limbo state of a company where their best money makers aren't their flagship product. The games make less money than other stuff like merchandise, but those other stuff need the games first. So that creates the whole production schedule problem where they have to continuously rush games every few years.

As a Pokemon fan that sucks, but at the same time I kinda get why their hands are tied in the business sense

Doesn't help that they had to transition from sprites to 3D models back in gen 6, an area that they had less competence in

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u/Radix2309 Nov 17 '22

Do they actually need the game first? They can show up in spinoffs, the anime, etc.

We had Togepi for years before Gen 2 came out. Similarly with Lucario being revealed.

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u/aaa1e2r3 Nov 17 '22

Looking at the release schedules

Togepi in the anime: June 25 1998

Pokemon Gold and Silver: November 21 1999

With Gen 4, in addition to Lucario, you also meet Munchlax and Bonsly in XD Gale of Darkness

Munchlax & Bonsly in Gale of Darkness: August 4 2005

Lucario in Mystery of Mew: July 16 2005

Diamond & Pearl: September 28, 2006

Yeah, promotion and build up of the next generation was well a year in advance. Something I noticed while looking up the dates was that Generations 3 and 4 had a whole 4 years for those gens, the 3 year generation cycle was only something that began with Generation 5.

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u/Jmund89 Nov 17 '22

What gets me is the anime this time around didn’t even focus on Galar. Sure there were a few mons and gym leaders shown, but that was it. They could’ve easily gotten away with having SWSH come out in 2020 for another year of development.

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u/Radix2309 Nov 17 '22

I would like to go back to 4 year cycle. Especially since DLC is now a thing. Release a game 1 year. Over the next year or so release a DLC or 2 to give more story and a new area, focus on a legendary, etc.

Then after 2-3 years release a remake or whatever in a different region. And can even have a DLC for another year.

Not to mention spinoffs. I miss the old days where each generation had various stuff like Mystery dungeon, coliseum, stadium, etc.

This gives us a nice fleshed out generation and room for development of the main game.

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u/GlaIie Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

This is completely off-topic but Mystery of Mew was really 2005? Jesus christ i’m getting old

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u/aaa1e2r3 Nov 17 '22

If it helps, 2005 was the Japanese release, international release was 2006

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u/OriginalBiga Nov 17 '22

Yeah, Pokemon is being held back by being a massive multimedia franchise. The fact that its success is inversely proportional to its quality is such a bitter irony. The strict merchandise production schedule will always bottleneck the development of the games- they don’t have the time to polish these things even if they knew how.

I know its basically impossible due to the magic hold the brand has on millions of people, but I would love to see one, just one, Pokemon game fail spectacularly. I wonder if it would change anything.

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u/Sampleswift Nov 17 '22

It won't.

For a Pokemon game to fail that hard, it would have to be Sonic 06 or Modern Madden levels of quality. As long as there aren't microtransactions and the game is functional (no "Sonic clipping through the ground" issues and broken boss fights) a Pokemon game can't fail.

And even if it was in danger of failing, there would simply be an update to patch out the glitches.

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u/notimprezaed Nov 17 '22

Funny you mention Madden, Madden 23 was a roaring success for EA. Over $2 billion in sales on launch iirc

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u/Sampleswift Nov 17 '22

It's basically Pokemon's crappier cousin in the sense that it's too big to fail even though almost all Madden games post-13 are very bad.

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u/Moznomick Nov 17 '22

Yeah that has really been the major factor for GF. They are so used to working with limited hardware that when it came time to transition to modern games, they didn't have the experience needed to create a modern game. While that is understandable, it's still not an excuse especially with the kind of money the games generate let alone the franchise itself.

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u/QuothTheRaven713 Nov 17 '22

I call it the Pokemon Perpetual Motion Machine.

GameFreak has some good ideas. There's a fantastic game in there somewhere. But the scope of an open-world game isn't feasible to do in half the time it took to develop BOTW with a fraction of the manpower. But unlike Zelda or Mario that can just have the games done at their own pace, the anime and merch is fueled by the games, so there needs to constantly be games.

That "new gen in 3 years" worked well for smaller 2D titles. But while gaming looks better, it requires more time and processing to make a game look and run good—time that Pokemon's long-held business model doesn't allow for. They need to change things up.

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u/socialistbcrumb Nov 17 '22

It could be alleviated to an extent if they truly outsourced some remakes/side games to other developers to give a full development cycle. They could do over 4-5 years a new gen, a dlc pack, a remake, a legends style game, and then mix in an off year or a big spin off. Wouldn’t be perfect but then they could actually polish or even expand the team size/bring in some people who know what they’re doing on the tech end.

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u/Enjoyer_of_Cake Nov 18 '22

They also have to not be afraid to let the outsourced content outshine themselves.

Apparently BDSP got a lot of its proposed features rejected, with some of it to avoid upstaging P:LA.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

I never once blamed the switch for the quality of these Pokémon games though. It’s entirely on Game Freak

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u/Slick_36 Nov 17 '22

I think they were just elaborating, not pushing back against you.

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u/Arod20 Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 17 '22 Silver

It’s not hardware it’s optimization, GF is trying to render the entire open-world instead of chunks and this is lowering performance, in order for this to improve GF would have to implement a patch where the game renders the parts of the open world (like all open world games since PS3). This rendering is made worse by the fact that when rendering the entire world at once it’s also loading in sprites for Pokémon and trainers too, and animations for the Pokémon. A better solution for the time being maybe to stop the game from loading mons and trainers until you get to an area as it’s putting so much strain on the game. But GF has to realize that rendering an open world game in chunks would drastically improve performance and meet the standards of current open world games. This would also allow them to put more stuff in the world and add more to do and be less barebones, another complaint of some reviews. I know this is GF’s first jump into open world but you would think they would realize some of the basics that make a open world game run better.

This was all found out when someone’s camera clipped and showed the entire world loaded

Edit: removed spoiler on last sentence, initially there just incase but was causing confusion

Edit 2: here is the link to the post where it says the world is loaded it’s under his “performance” section

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u/Accomplished_Diver86 Nov 17 '22

You don’t tell me.. is this for real? Like honest question, did anyone confirm that the whole world gets loaded at once???

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u/Arod20 Nov 17 '22

Yea I put a spoiler on it just in case, but someone’s camera clipped and showed the whole world loaded/loading

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u/Locke_and_Load Nov 17 '22

Holy fuck, they’re THAT far behind everyone else in terms of techniques and technology? This shit was solved two to three generations ago…

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u/nkeb42 Nov 18 '22

In SU/USUM they did something that I'd never seen any other modern game do.

They copy/pasted every single NPC to every single map where that NPC appeared. So if Lillie shows up in 100 maps, there are 100 copies of lillie. Instead of how every other game works where you make the one model and then simply tell the game to load that model where needed.

Game Freak is massively behind the entire industry. In open world, optimization and file management 15-20. Some others only about 5-10.

So in about another 10 years we'll have a pokemon game on par with 360/ps3 titles.

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u/vaserius Nov 18 '22

Im honestly not suprised by their ineptitude. Just think back how in gen 1 and 2 Iwata had to save their project and even managed to make space for Kanto.

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u/swizzler Evolve... Why? Nov 18 '22

They copy/pasted every single NPC to every single map where that NPC appeared

The dark souls games do this too, any map an NPC/Enemy appears in they have to be pre-loaded out of bounds. It happened so much in those games and either was finally upgraded in elder scrolls mid development... or the devs were so used to the method they didn't realize it was needed anymore and still pre-loaded some NPCs out of bounds.

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u/redsavage0 Nov 18 '22

Theycantkeepgettingawaywithit.jpg

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u/Rhoderick Nov 18 '22

They copy/pasted every single NPC to every single map where that NPC appeared. So if Lillie shows up in 100 maps, there are 100 copies of lillie. Instead of how every other game works where you make the one model and then simply tell the game to load that model where needed.

Technical blunder for sure, but waaaay less bad. Sure, it's bloat, but they had space to spare on the cartridge, and it had 0 gameplay impact.

Interestingly, didn't even the SwSh wild area have loading by chunks?

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u/Athulryes Nov 18 '22

This is pretty much why having a full Pokedex is not a thing. Just imagine how much more work it is to develop a game using 10 year old standards lol

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u/Fyrus93 Nov 18 '22

Ocarina of Time on the N64 did it! The first generation with 3D games solved it. This should never be an issue

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u/Accomplished_Diver86 Nov 17 '22

Well on one hand I am just baffled that this thing could even happen to a big development company, like wtf.

On the other hand I now have some hope that this could be the key to resolve the fps issues. Doesn’t seem like a too hard thing to be fixed and might actually be patchable in a month or so. Just lower the rendering to a minimum, add some nice background, so it doesnt look to weird and tada should be fine. Here is hoping.

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u/Arod20 Nov 17 '22

Yea, one would hope that someone at Nintendo could help GF with open world, I mean games like BOTW managed to properly load the open world so that the game wasn’t bogged down, and like Pokémon it had over world “characters” (the enemies).

It’s hard to believe this got past the initial development, this seems like such a obvious thing to change. Unless there’s something in the world that requires it to be loaded at all times (which would be a major oversight and poor design choice).

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u/Batmans_9th_Ab Nov 17 '22

Unless there’s something in the world that requires it to be loaded at all times (which would be a major oversight and poor design choice).

This is the same studio that had a unique model for each character EVERYTIME THEY APPEARED IN A DOFFERENT LOCATION in Sun and Moon…

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u/PunkRockTeacher Nov 17 '22

I find it very odd that I was explaining this to another user in another thread... No commentary on this comment. Just surprised I saw it mentioned twice since it's a fairly little known fact.

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u/MisfitMagic Nov 17 '22

Botw was heavily supported by monloithsoft, the team behind the xenoblade series, and open world specialists.

Nintendo didn't have a team to do this in house.

Gamefreak is also likely completely out of their element here.

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u/Arod20 Nov 17 '22

Yea I meant more in the sense they could get help like BOTW did, as it did very well with performance

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u/QuothTheRaven713 Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

Even if they did get help, BOTW took 5 years to make. SV took 3. Heck, given Japan had intense lockdowns for a while during 2020, they may have lost 6 months to a year of the dev cycle on top of that, and because of Pokemon's deadlines, they couldn't push it back.

5 to 6 years for an open world game with a team of 450 people? Quite doable. 3 years? Definitely not going to be polished. Less than 3 years, a team that's a fraction of the above size, and having the open world all load at once rather than in zones? It would be an outright miracle if it could run smoothly and didn't glitch every 5 minutes.

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u/Pebbleman54 Nov 17 '22

I can't wait for the day Gamefreak realizes it's can't continue as the small studio they are trying to be and actually doubles or hopefully triple it's size. Tho tbh it's surprising what they did get done with the time they did and with lockdowns and working from home.

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u/Kwayke9 Nov 17 '22

Probably will be day Nintendo gets the balls to buy/save them, taking full control of Pokémon in the process, so probably never. I got no hopes Pokémon company will do anything except working half the studio to their actual deaths over the next 15 years or so

If Pokémon were to collapse, it won't be a slow, quiet one. It will be a loud and very, very dirty death

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u/QuothTheRaven713 Nov 17 '22

Yeah, they really should hire a couple hundred more people. Maybe get some of Monolith Soft's staff to help.

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u/Wubbzy-mon Top 5 Nov 17 '22

That's Pokemon's problem

Up until now, they have had an in-house team smaller than 150-200. Now it's over 250, but they need to churn/hire in new people faster now to keep the franchise up, and not newbies

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u/ChokeslamMeMommy Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 17 '22

Gamefreak continues to prove they got massively lucky with Pokemon.

Even just watching them stumble from 2D into 3D was hilarious. They're just so bad at making games. The expected limitations of handhelds were genuinely propping them up.

Now that's all gone and it's just clear as day they're not cut out for this. Gamefreak needs to hand off the series and go do other IPs like they clearly want to anyway. Let Creatures Inc hand off the main series to a Nintendo dev group and give the remakes, Let's Go, and spinoffs to other companies.

That alone would dramatically improve the quality of the games.

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u/Jss_jule Nov 17 '22

Gamefreak needs to hand off the series and go do other IPs like they clearly want to anyway

I dont know if GF survives a scenario like this. Has ANY of their ventures outside of Pokemon been successful? I remember Little Town Hero awhile back, but no one talked about it outside of "Oh, it's made by the dudes who make Pokemon!"

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u/Batmans_9th_Ab Nov 17 '22

And it got absolutely eviscerated by critics.

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u/EMI_Black_Ace Nov 18 '22

And purchased by basically nobody, which is what really matters.

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u/balfey1678 Nov 17 '22

Imagine monopoly but with rock paper sisccors battles, and you smashing ya head against a wall so you forget you bought the game.

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u/ZorkNemesis Disco Pants and Haircuts! Nov 17 '22

I only really remember Little Town Hero because of Toby Fox. I know nothing else about the game myself.

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u/locke_5 Nov 17 '22

Don't you dare disrespect Tembo the Badass Elephant like that

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u/Rodents210 Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 18 '22 Take My Energy

I am just baffled that this thing could even happen to a big development company, like wtf.

They are completely isolated from everything, be it feedback on their design decisions or best practices in development. These are developers who just kind of do their own thing with no regard for what every other developer in the world has collectively landed on as best practices after years of thorough analysis and trial-and-error. They've always done this, which is why they literally gave up on Gold/Silver until there was outside intervention to save the project. They run on hubris alone.

They are not going to improve these things in future games. They won't, ever. They have never done so since Red and Blue. It's not a lack of skill at Game Freak that is the problem; skills can be acquired through effort. The problem is a culture of ego that makes it impossible to recognize their profound lack of skill, and thereby makes it psychologically impossible for the personalities at Game Freak to accept the need for improvement.

The junior teams at Game Freak, based on what they've worked on (USUM, PLA), are better than the senior teams (who worked on SV), but they're still not great. Having known many a software developer and being one myself, I wouldn't be surprised if they're intentionally not hiring the best people they can because people with appreciable skill are a threat to the seniors' egos. So instead we get juniors who are still ultimately better (because it's frankly hard to do worse and still get a product out the door) but not as good as they could be (Edit: but in fairness to those juniors, it is equally likely that they know better but seniors are actively enforcing poor practices).

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u/PDG_KuliK Nov 18 '22

Textbook Expert Beginnerism.

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u/Rodents210 Nov 18 '22

I have surprisingly never come across that term before but it is fantastic and very useful, so thank you.

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u/pepbe Nov 17 '22

Welcome to Japanese work culture 101

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u/Jmund89 Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

I don’t know that I’d call them big… they only have roughly 200 employees I believe. That’s not a defense by the way. The problem is, the company is inept. This same company couldnt get gold and silver to fit and was about ready to just scrap Gen 2 altogether until Satoru redid everything and not only managed to fit Gold/Silver but also Kanto Apparently this is inaccurate, learned something new today. They just don’t know how to make 3D games on a console. Which makes no sense…

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u/Dray_Gunn Nov 17 '22

It honestly sounds like we have one of the world's biggest gaming franchises being developed by complete amateur. I dont think there is really anyone at Gamefreak currently that fully knows what they are doing. Atleast thats what their end result looks like.

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u/BrandoThePando Nov 17 '22

one of the world's biggest gaming franchises

Actually the biggest media franchise by gross

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises

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u/Jmund89 Nov 17 '22

That’s the thing, the biggest franchise is mainly around merchandise… the games come second. Which is so odd because without the games there wouldnt be a popularity for the merch…

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u/LB3PTMAN Nov 17 '22

I mean at this point they could probably completely stop making new games and just release new Pokémon mercy and it would still sell like crazy

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u/SluggJuice Nov 17 '22

The same GameFreak that had a seperate Lillie model for each encounter. The Lillie you see on one island is a different Lillie to the Lillie you see on another. The Lillie is a lie.

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u/BrandoThePando Nov 17 '22

...why?

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u/covertpetersen Nov 17 '22

Because they're a ridiculously small dev team that didn't hire enough people to facilitate a jump to full 3D games, and they still haven't years later. They clearly don't have the required knowledge or manpower to accomplish games of this scope.

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u/WeirdFish28 Nov 17 '22

Jesus Christ

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u/gamas Nov 17 '22

Eurgh I can even work out how this happened. If this is the same engine that was developed for Legends Arceus, then the Arceus areas also load their entire map. But with PLA it's less of a problem as each individual area is smaller...

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u/Lyrrh Nov 17 '22

This is the same Game Freak that during SM/USUM, put over 100 instances of the exact same model into the game files to use them in different areas instead of just coding the game to call from one individual model. That's easily verified as well, can be tested using HackTools and Ohana3DS on any of those games.

That's every overworld model that appears more than once, by the way. Not just one instance done by mistake.

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u/mt5o Nov 17 '22

You'll know this is the case on the last area as there are multiple characters with you. Even though they are offscreen the perf tanks but when you go there by yourself there are no issues which suggests that something weird is going on in the background.

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u/Spacebar2018 Nov 17 '22

Wait they're not using a fucking chunk loader? What the fuck its 2022/

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u/Glacecakes filthy casual Nov 17 '22

Imagine if Minecraft did this wtf

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u/TerraGamer9384 Nov 17 '22

Ah yes 60000000x60000000x384 blocks loading in at once, and however many mobs

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u/Crcnch Nov 17 '22

Minecraft is considered a very unoptimized game already, which you wouldn’t think after seeing how SV runs

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u/JoBro_Summer-of-99 Nov 17 '22

Your computer would definitely explode if Minecraft did that, since each new Minecraft world is infinite in size

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u/TotalyNotTony Nov 17 '22

Minecraft is 60000000 x 60000000 blocks, not infinite

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u/Phailadork Nov 18 '22

Numbers that big could really use some commas lol.

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u/Fried_puri I Like Turtles Nov 18 '22

It’s 60,000,000 x 60,000,000

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u/MudkipNerd 🤓 (r/PyukumukuForOU) Nov 17 '22

did those dinguses actually make it all rendered at once

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u/somerandom_melon Nov 18 '22

Honestly kinda funny how SwSh and PLA had a short render distance for pokemon and trees, but now that's apparently gone and it became an even worse problem.

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u/balfey1678 Nov 17 '22

This can't be real, I learnt how not to render the whole world of a game in my second year of uni. Fuck me this is next level bad optimization

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u/Zephyr_______ Dynamic miss Nov 17 '22

Whats far more likely is that there's a low detail world model always loaded in for distant areas so you can look out and see what's ahead and when you get closer it gradually loads in higher and higher LOD models. How open world games have actually been made for a very long while.

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u/PowerHautege Nov 18 '22

Yeah if you get high enough in GTA IV the traffic switches to a loop of literal light points.

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u/InfernoVulpix Nov 18 '22

Yeah, performance optimization tricks are rarely so obvious from the outside, being more often just a ton of little optimizations under the hood that are each individually hard to point out to someone without domain knowledge.

The results (or lack thereof) speak for themselves, but I wouldn't really trust the people in this thread (including myself) to guess at what should've been done to improve it.

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u/Crossfiyah Nov 17 '22

PLA wasn't even open world, it was hub world, and the rendering distances for mons was truly pathetic.

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u/GoSuckOnACactus Nov 18 '22

Hey don’t talk shit about my slideshow golbats. Those 2 fps guys brought me back to the days when sprites moved in crystal!

6

u/YellowMatteCustard Nov 18 '22

Well now we've got slideshow NPCs

I was walking around the town before the school city, and the first NPC I encountered was a stuttering kid with a stuttering bounsweet.

And now I'm at the school city, and EVERYONE is stuttering.

It's a mess.

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u/OsmerusMordax Nov 17 '22

There is literally no excuse for loading the whole world at once. Even small indie studios with like 5 people make better 3D games than Gamefreak does, holy shit.

The only reason why GF is still alive is because of the Pokemon brand

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u/MUDrummer Nov 18 '22

This is absolutely correct information. If anyone wants a visualization of how this is supposed to be done, the Horizon Zero Dawn devs put out a great clip showing how the game actually renders the environment. You can clearly see how the game is divided into a grid and how parts of the grid only render when the players vision is in a grid square adjacent to it

https://imgur.com/gallery/iuT70

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u/Anuvis Nov 17 '22

Couldn’t GF at least hire a couple of people who worked on BotW’s world as a consultant? They are all under the Nintendo umbrella after all…

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u/GM131998 Nov 17 '22

Instructions too clear, makes too much sense, frame rate got stuck in the ceiling fan

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u/Nedgurlin Nov 18 '22

Why do that when I could give you “this” and it flies off the shelf? Gen 11 will have 2014 graphics and 2012 mechanics/gimmicks but when GF shows you the 3 new starters you’ll be ready to buy that too. 🤣🤣

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u/SGKurisu Nov 18 '22

wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed the average Gamefreak developer is 60 years old using old work laptops running Windows XP and are just phoning it in until they can cash in on their pension life.

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u/blazebakun Nov 18 '22

That has seemingly already been confirmed. In a presentation a few months ago they said they switched to AWS and that cut their SwSh build times from 40 minutes to 10 minutes.

They had to wait 40 minutes for the game to compile in order to test any changes.

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u/WhoShotMrBoddy Nov 18 '22

This from the company with programmers so poor they couldn’t fit 1 game on a cartridge until Iwata came in and fixed their shit and was able to put Johto AND Kanto onto the cartridge.

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u/Kinggakman Nov 18 '22

I would imagine they have plenty of young people working there but they get no say in major decisions and mostly do what they are told.

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u/sporeegg Nov 17 '22

It does not need to look like Breath of the Wild, but for a game that comes out 5 years AFTER the launch of the system it has NO EXCUSE to look THIS SHIT.

And I say this as someone who enjoyed Sword despite the graphics.

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u/Dannypan Nov 18 '22

Hey, be fair.

Breath of the Wild is a Wii U game. It’s not right to compare an open world game releasing today to one that’s six years old that released on a last-gen console.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

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u/2580374 Nov 18 '22

Which is the most Chad thing in the world. Such a legend

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

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u/ChongusTheSupremus Nov 18 '22

‘when you were 8 years old you didn’t care about the quality of the trees or stuff like that, you enjoyed it because it was magic’

The trees also looked great in BW because those games are masterpieces of DS spriteart, and downright some of the best looking sprite-based games ever made.

RBY, GS, ZRE, and DPP did have shitty trees and overall bad spritework, but for their time they were some of the best looking handheld games.

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u/conye-west Nov 18 '22

ZRE

Ah yes my favorite game, Pokemon Zapphire

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u/UltraInstinctLurker Nov 18 '22

you know what got released when I was 9yo? Black and white

ages into dust

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u/ConfusedFlareon Join me, Master Mega! Nov 18 '22

No, what the fuck was that??? Oh my god don’t they have laws for this?

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u/zanarkandskylines Nov 18 '22

This…makes me extremely sad. Holy shit.

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u/asatcat III > VII > IV > I > II > V > VI > VIII Nov 18 '22

This is worse than I even imagined hahahaha

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u/MoonBeamerGirl Nov 18 '22

Know how 8 year old me would’ve reacted to that frame rate? She would’ve cried thinking she broke the game and panicked. Kids aren’t stupid- they know how things should work and what technology glitching/lagging looks like.

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u/Watsisface Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 17 '22

Every mainline Pokémon game (or whatever it is you call BDSP and PLA) since SwSh has suffered from a lack of polish. These games need like an extra year of work.

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u/Gian1993 The right amount of oddness Nov 17 '22

Or more people to work on them.

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u/Scurro Nov 17 '22

There's a joke among Blizzard communities when something is released with really bad QA/polish but multi million dollar budget.

Small indie studio.

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u/VoidMiasma The sheer volume of high quality! Nov 17 '22

Is that just Blizzard? I see that exact thing thrown at Riot all the time, alongside 200 years of collective game design experience.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

It's so weird to think that the last well-polished mainline Pokemon game was Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee lol

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u/ConnorAustiin Nov 18 '22

its crazy that those games, visually, actually looked amazing

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u/TheOceanMansWeen Nov 18 '22

they were beautiful and the gameplay was so clean. i loved legends arceus too even if it wasn’t nearly as polished. it was just so refreshing. i personally think GF should split the mainline franchise into two series: a LGP/E series that has simplistic movement, world, and gameplay and is super polished and clean looking and PLA where they can try to new stuff, give us an open world and more action oriented gameplay. bring pokémon back to its little roots, and then make a sequel game to the new gen that has a PLA play style. instead they’ve been trying to marriage these two ideas into pokémon since gen 8 and it really hasn’t been working

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u/Soggyglump Nov 17 '22

Geez can Game Freak just…. Hire 1 or 2 people who understand how 3D games work?? Please???

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u/K-Amadoor Nov 17 '22

Would you say it is better, worse, or similar to PLA??

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

Too early to say for the quality of the entire game but in terms of it technically, it’s worse

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u/K-Amadoor Nov 17 '22

That is sad to hear

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u/-Wonder-Bread- Nov 17 '22

Somehow that doesn't seem possible. As much as I loved most of PLA, the graphical quality is just so bad. It's gotta look like a PS2 game to look worse at this point.

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u/Pokemario6456 Battle Revolution deserves a sequel Nov 17 '22

I think they meant it's worse performance-wise than graphically. PLA had fairly consistent framerate, but Sc/Vi are struggling

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u/BetaThetaOmega He justs wants to be loved Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

There is a scene about 2 hours in where you are in your classroom and the camera pans across the entire class. Half of the students are locked in that “2 frames per second” animation mode that they do for models that are hundreds of metres away.

The children are on the other side of the classroom, like 4 metres away. The camera at one point places one of them squarely in the center of the frame, almost forcing you to notice it.

A smarter developer would use camera tricks to hide the poor rendering. Hell, half of the class is pretty much just sitting still, why did they just do that for all of them, avoid the problem entirely? It’s almost like they want you to see how bad they are at this

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u/Nate40337 Nov 18 '22

Also there's way too little variety in their designs, and they pretty much all move in the exact same way at the exact same time. It's actually pretty creepy.

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u/gamas Nov 17 '22

As I understand the issue, its PLA graphics quality AND worse framerate..

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u/Rectangle_Rex Nov 17 '22

Graphically, the pokemon and character models look significantly better than PLA but environments look just as bad or a little worse. Performance-wise it is insanely terrible, as everybody has been saying.

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u/shitfren Nov 17 '22

A step in the right direction my ass. This is a AAA developer that makes billions in sales with pokemon games, or at least 100s of millions, doesn't change the fact that the final product isn't what i call a triple A title by a mile. This game has frame rate issues with grass that looks like drawn with paint.

They lowered the bar on what they release as a final product every time they put out a game for years. Have stopped to buy them with the gen 4 remakes and had high hopes for this game, but it is once again trash tier graphics + they deleted major content we had in every game for ages. Why TF is there no battle tower?

This got more of a rent then i wanted but i just hate it how low effort games they produce that are still breaking records.

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u/annetea Nov 18 '22

I made a joke to a friend earlier that the game doesn't matter, it's just to sell toys. And he looked it up and it's not really a joke. Licensed merchandise is $91.3B vs. $27.1B for games. I don't think they'll slow down the release schedule for the good of the games because it's the merch driving the decisions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises

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u/Raleth Nov 17 '22

Can we somehow please for the love of god get Monolith Soft to help with Pokémon games going forward? They are masters of optimization for their own huge open worlds. Like environmental design and optimization is literally their forte. Even back when they were making Xenogears under Squenix, they opted instead to get the jump on impressive 3D environments while everyone else opted for static 2D environments with 3D character models. They’ve been at this for longer than almost any other developer.

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u/Yeldarb10 Braixen Nov 18 '22

Get the BOTW team for the world, have Bandai namco to do the graphics, then let spike chunsoft write the story.

Gamefreak can still make the pokemon.

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u/JustAFleshWound1 Nov 18 '22

Monolith Soft helped develop BotW, so yes.

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u/Raleth Nov 18 '22

Monolith Soft played a very large role in the creation of BotW's world, which is exactly my point.

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u/DinJarring141 Nov 18 '22

People will downovote but Alola looked way better than this

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u/MoistMarie Nov 18 '22

Downvoting the truth would be extremely dishonest.

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u/orig4mi-713 Nov 18 '22

USUM on Citra with hd retexture and HD render resolution puts SwSh and ScVi to shame.

Actually, no, even on a New 3DS XL it still looks much better.

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u/MyUltIsMyMain Nov 17 '22

At this point I wish nintwndo would just fully buy the rights to pokemon from gamefreak and have a different developer make the game.

Gamefreak doesn't seem to be able to make console games on a high enough level. They did great things when everything was 2d and sprites but they've been super struggling with 3d since it started.

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u/AzureSkyXIII Nov 18 '22 Wholesome

I wish they'd go back to making what they're good at. There aren't enough good pixel art games anyway.

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u/vegemouse Nov 17 '22

I think the biggest problem is that they’re forcing the open world experience, which they’re really not good at. I liked the older games because even though their gameplay is more linear, it still felt open because you can revisit old places, find new pokémon in areas you’ve already been, etc. Open world works for some games, and could work for Pokémon, but they’re just not cut out for the job.

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u/GrumpyBearBank Nov 17 '22

They could also hire people to help the open world.

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u/beaverteeth92 Nov 18 '22

Nintendo should get Monolith Soft to help them out more often, like they do for many of their other games.

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u/Playingpokerwithgod Nov 18 '22

Hire people who have more experience with open world games!? What is this blasphemy!?

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u/Blue_Gamer18 Nov 17 '22

It could and should work, if only GameFreak/TPC got their heads out of their asses and allowed for time and outside assistance to produce a beautiful game.

With the right dedication and care, I believe anything is possible for these games.

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u/GreatYeob Nov 17 '22

i think open world like this is great for the future pokémon games, just gotta be optimised and not run like shjt 💀

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u/knowitsallashow Nov 17 '22

Pokemon gonna look like the metaverse next title. Smh.

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u/Amerillo19 Nov 17 '22

I lost hope in the franchise. Everytging they put out, even the online tcg has been so subpar. For the billion $ company that it is, they really hate making fans happy.

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u/ENateFak Nov 17 '22

I’m definitely not buying this game unless it’s second hand. I refused to support the series once sword and shield came out, and I will continue to do so until they make games worthy of being the highest grossing franchise on the planet.

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u/Taser9001 Nov 17 '22

I could tell it would be from the first reveal trailer. Similar look to it as PLA.

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u/mi_esposa_me_espia Nov 18 '22

I'm done giving this franchise money. Zelda can modernize, Mario can modernize, every major Nintendo franchise out there is at the cutting edge and pushing the boundaries, while Pokemon is pumping out N64 quality graphics and 20 year old gameplay.

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u/LaBeteNoire Nov 18 '22

Even Kirby made huge strides. When every other franchise used the N64 to move into 3D games, Kirby was one of the big hold outs. But this time around even that series decided they had to move forward and change up the formula.

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u/anthro28 Nov 18 '22

The pirates and hackers have been telling you that for a week.

“No bro you’re not using the patch”

“Nuh uh man you got a bad ROM”

No, they’re just bad.

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u/AccountSave Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 17 '22

After beating Scarlet I went back to do a nuzlocke of SwSh. People really took for granted how well these games played in comparison to Scarlet. Scarlet runs abhorrently.

Edit: gamefreak fans can downvote all you want but doesn’t change the fact that the game runs like shit.

Edit 2: wait till you guys reach the giant lake at the top left of the map, I bet you $10 you’ll crack up laughing.

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u/McNuggetsauce69 Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

Already people are saying SwSh were taken for granted? The cycle continues I guess

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u/AccountSave Nov 17 '22

The performance every iteration of their open world game has gotten worse. SwSh was already noticeably bad, Legends was worse, and Scarlet is so bad it’s comical. In retrospect, yeah, the cycle continues of continually being shocked at how low GF can go.

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u/Aiyon Nov 17 '22

Did we take it for granted? or is it just that they failed to reach an already low bar

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u/Yeldarb10 Braixen Nov 18 '22

Thats kinda how I felt. I just wanted a copy pasta pokemon game with open world. I was excited for the starters and happy to hear from leaks that some of my favorite would be usable in that game. And now… the game runs like that? I paid $350 for a switch, first party games should play without major issues. Thats the whole point of this console.

I really feel disappointed because I was genuinely getting excited to play. I’ve always been “late to the game” with many pokemon titles. The one time I wanted to get the game around launch and it ends up shipping in a broken state…

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u/TheChingerChanger Nov 17 '22

And when the next Pokemon games come out, we'll talk about how people took Violet/Scarlet for granted. It's almost like this shit's been on a downwards spiral for 10+ years now and yet you keep funding it. Madness.

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u/Lux0s1312 Nov 18 '22

Honestly they should just revert to 2D.

Pokemon had it's own charme with the 2D style and now it's just an ugly playstation 1 mess...

They should've stopped at Black/White with trying to improve graphics. Because right now, it's just going down.