r/interestingasfuck Aug 13 '22 Helpful 2 Wholesome 1

Tens of thousands of Americans protest a Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden, February 20th 1939

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546 Upvotes

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28

u/dynamiteSkunkApe Aug 13 '22

Wow, I've seen many posts about the rally, but not the protests against it.

15

u/FistyMcBeefSlap Aug 13 '22

Always two sides to a story.

3

u/Scared-Ingenuity9082 Aug 13 '22

Yeah I'll let you come to your own conclusions as to who won that debate whether America should be a Nazi state or not...

18

u/Simba_Swish Aug 13 '22 edited Aug 13 '22

The rally attendees were primarily German-Americans.

"The Bund’s membership was primarily first-generation German Americans and German immigrants, who were blue-collar workers centered in the Midwest, the East and West Coasts."

The authors grandfather was an immigrant, Nazi Spyo, and Bund Organizer. It should also be noted that to become a member you must be ethnically German regardless of citizenship status.

https://wohoster.edu/2021/04/10/sydney-barger/

Thought I would provide some context to counter the click bait.

Credit to u/NoRope8778 for helpfully pointing this out in the other thread.

7

u/NoRope8778 Aug 13 '22

MORE THAN 100,000 AMERICANS FROZE THEIR ASSES OFF TO PROTEST NAZIS THAT NIGHT!

On the day of the rally, Mayor LaGuardia dispatched over 1,000 police officers in anticipation of large protests outside of Madison Square Garden. One-hundred thousand protesters gathered in the streets surrounding the Garden carrying signs with phrases like: “Drive the Nazis out of New York” and “Give me a gas mask, I can’t stand the smell of Nazis.”

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-nazism-and-madison-square-garden

18

u/murdacai999 Aug 13 '22

Make Nazis afraid again

8

u/MrSaturdayRight Aug 13 '22

True story: Donald Trump’s father was among those attending the rally

3

u/Chard069 Aug 13 '22

On which side? And did he wear his Klan robes?

4

u/First-Funnies Aug 13 '22

Kellyanne Conway’s Irish Ancestors Were the Enemy When Donald Trump’s Dad Was Arrested at a Klan Riot in 1927

https://theintercept.com/2019/07/17/kellyanne-conway-irish-fred-trump/

1

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '22 edited Aug 28 '22

[deleted]

1

u/Chard069 Aug 13 '22

Likely not a positive side. Tradition!

6

u/check_out_times Aug 13 '22

LOVE to see it.

More counter protestors than Nazis.

Same as today.

We can see why fascist fucks like theil and other fascist billionaires breed apathy using bots and trolls

1

u/ShadowCaster0476 Aug 13 '22

Just remember Henry ford and Walt Disney were card carrying members of the National socialist party once upon a time.

1

u/WeAreAllOnThisBus Aug 13 '22

Ford definitely flipped, he met personally with Hitler and Hitler had his portrait in his office. Pretty sure Ford plants, controlled in ways by Ford, operated through the war (along with GM) in Nazi Germany making armaments. Allied pilots were told not to bomb them, and after the war the profits were sent back to America and reparations from America were made for any bombing damage.

5

u/gokism Aug 13 '22

Thank you for posting this. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the photo of the Nazi rally at MSG, but this is the first time I've seen this photo.

2

u/PunkFriday Aug 13 '22

Ah, so cops defending Nazis at rallies is a tradition.

3

u/Moopiedoop Aug 14 '22

People have a right to their “political opinion”, no matter how vile or utterly disgusting. Unfortunate in this situation but it’s a necessary evil in my opinion.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '22

[deleted]

2

u/RadicalCentrist95 Aug 13 '22

Different building, different place. There have been 4 Madison Square Gardens. This happened in the 3rd one. You'd be buying tickets to the 4th one.

-2

u/thursday_sock Aug 13 '22

You seem fun

2

u/RadicalCentrist95 Aug 13 '22

Only if you enjoy living and basking in the beauty of nature, talking about history, or playing nerdy video games.

Other than that, Im either boring or an asshole.

1

u/Pythia007 Aug 13 '22

Fucking antifa making trouble as usual. Alarmists

1

u/cosmernaut420 Aug 13 '22

Oh, gee, um, who's unironically letting a group of fascists gather to plot treason behind them? Is it the antifascist protesters or the line of cops? It's so hard to tell who was supporting nazis against American citizens from a single picture with no context like this 🙄

-3

u/MemoryWholed Aug 13 '22

Let’s do this against the commies now… They’ve killed many multiples more people and still operate concentration camps TODAY.

6

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 13 '22 edited Aug 13 '22

To be fair, Nazis only killed less because there was only one true nazi regime and its leader was only a totalitarian dictator for 11-ish years. Compared to Stalin and Mao who held absolute power for multiple decades.

When you gage it that way, nazism and communism aren't really aren't all that close at all in terms of the human cost caused by ideology(at least in terms of murder. Famine is another issue maybe). Nazism is far worse in its ruthlessness.

3

u/Bruiser9663 Aug 13 '22

Interesting approach. I've never seen someone use the Maris/Ruth concept when comparing those men. Not just dead sure what the takeaway is supposed to be from this, though. What were Stalin and Mao's first five year numbers? Maybe then we could establish a baseline... I mean are we talking tactics or results here? Either way they're the worst ideological implementations this world has ever seen. Take a victim from Hitler, one from Mao and then Stalin. Now tell me which one is more dead?

2

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 13 '22 edited Aug 13 '22

I mean, its really meant more as food for thought considering the intent of nazis vs those of communists.

We also tend to forget communist leaders that did not have brutal numbers like that ie: Kruschev for instance is comparably extremely mild, although still authoritarian.

We don't have a counter example of a mild mild nazi leader(we only have the one guy lol), but I think nazism's premise was such that you couldn't feasibly make much more mild. Its base concepts revolve around ethnic cleansing and lebensraum. Remove the really crazy shit and you have a bog standard fascist regime instead. It can't really be tamed without it just not being nazism anymore, ya know?

(Note: not a defense of communism or the practice of Marxist-Leninism, which I agree did not succeed. It's just that one is inherently more violent imo while the other is not AS inherently prone to mass death as its worst examples would have you believe. Though, I admit that is not a high bar)

My primary argument is that the real villain was a branch of communism that was Stalinism/Maoism, which emphasized progress over human life and conditions(with the occasional purge thrown in)

2

u/MobiusArmchair Aug 13 '22

Hitler achieved absolute political authority in 1934 and retained it until his death in 1945; 11 years. Famines in China and the USSR were mostly a result of ideology; The Great Leap Forward (breathtaking stupidity) and the liquidation of the Kulaks (state sanctioned mass murder). Combined death toll around the range of 20 - 60 million. That number excludes deaths in Gulags, or (modern day!) Chinese slave camps. And in the case of the Great Chinese famine the line between stupidity and mass murder disappears.

And for some terrifying reason left leaning people will still insist that Communism isn't as bad as Nazism.

3

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 13 '22 edited Aug 13 '22

Hitler achieved absolute political authority in 1934 and retained it until his death in 1945

I suppose the enabling act did grant him quite a lot. But his power wasn't perfected until later. Still, good point. Let's say 11 years then.

The great leap forward really wasn't a genocide or form of mass murder. It was the perfect example of the failure of collectivism, though. But I said that when you account for the ruthlessness of murder, nazism was worse. I made a note that you COULD make a counter argument based on famine deaths, which were MOSTLY the result socialist economic policy rather than deliberate murder.

I agree that the line between stupidity and and mass murder disappears. Human deaths matter and they were all victims of authoritarian regimes. However, consider that those numbers completely changed under the hands of other leaders. We don't view Kruschev or Breznev the way we view Lenin or Stalin. It's because they had different approaches. Some communists were legitimately less deadly. Meanwhile, the entire thesis of nazism was ethnic cleansing and imperial expansion against those deemed lesser. Hitler's war against the soviets may have killed more civilians than Stalin himself. murdered, which speaks volumes. Although, again, famine numbers could be used as a counter.

We only had one nazi regime to compare, but it's hard to imagine a different outcome, considering nazism's central premises. It's a lot more rigid and has less room for interpretation than communism did.

I'd say communism could be better compared unfavorably to OTHER forms of fascism outside of nazism if you consider that more benign communist leaders tend to behave more like non German fascists and don't deal with the same death tolls as Mao or Stalin. Italy and Spain were brutal and authoritarian, but are definitely in a more benign ballpark. Portugal meanwhile was SO benign, people forget that it went through a pseudo fascist state for multiple decades under Antonio Salazar. Although, he refused to CALL it fascism since he thought Italian Fascism was too "Pagan", it MOSTLY fit the bill.

1

u/MemoryWholed Aug 15 '22

Communists operate concentration camps TODAY

1

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 15 '22

They do. And so did America in the 1940s. Should we compare the concentration camps of a liberal democracy or a communist dictatorship to the same degree of Auschwitz? No.

The severity is different, even if it's all an afront to human rights, regardless.

0

u/MemoryWholed Aug 15 '22 edited Aug 15 '22

Nah dawg. Not the same. They operate concentration camps TODAY from which people are fodder for FORCED ORGAN HARVESTING (they die without their organs). They also use rape as a form of torture. This is china. The entire country of North Korea is a concentration camp where multiple generations of families are executed or sent to “no return work camps” where they eventually die, but not before they resort to eating the rats/bugs that are attracted by the open pit cemeteries if one person speaks out politically. Those are just three examples, there are many more. But what I’m saying is that if you care about the issue of concentration camps at all you would be speaking up about it happening in the world currently and not actively defending it you fucking psycho.

1

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 15 '22 edited Aug 15 '22

But what I’m saying is that if you care about the issue of concentration camps at all you would be speaking up about it happening in the world currently and not actively defending it you fucking psycho.

Lol. Calm down. No one is defending it. You're misunderstanding the conversation itself. You said "they killed many multiples more people", which is only true in general sense. In terms of numbers by a single regime under one administration, nazis killed quicker and more ruthlessly under less time. And not by collectivist policy, but by deliberate extermination. Context is important. Both in understanding what the respective ideologies cause and to what is being responded to in conversation.

https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2020/10/fact-check-the-death-count-for-muslims-killed-in-chinese-concentration-camps-has-not-surpassed-the-number-of-jews-killed-in-the-holocaust.html

Communists killed more by starvation and failure. But you do have a good point otherwise. I think we're still learning about the Chinese camps and what we know really isn't good and has more in common with their nazi counterparts than American ones. I haven't kept up AS much with them because China is a secretive fascist hellhole so information that can be confirmed is a bit harder to come by.

Rape and uterine removal seems the most likely and credible allegations so far, though and are major signs of genocide, which it IS. Best point of comparison would probably be the Serbian Bosnian camps so far.

However, the numbers are still uncertain. Remember, that my point is that nazism is inherently genocidal where communism tends to just resort to genocide under certain administrations. Today's are genocidal, but this hasn't always been the case. It's more frequent than inherent. Also, for nazis, camps were not the only form of mass murder. They also committed ethnic cleansing in the form of race war. Nazis murdered more Soviet civilians than Stalin's own regime did. At least directly.

Also, note that points of comparison have nothing to do with defense or preference. Literally, no one here is saying that concentration camps or ethnic cleansing or defensible... AT ALL. lol. Unlike the nazis, China does this today. Meanwhile, modern Germany is just chilling and being peaceful. Remember, the conversation was about deaths in numbers generated by their respective regimes, and my argument was that, if one is counting murder(not incompetent errors or famine), nazism leads to faster numbers of death by murder due to the ruthlessness of the ideology itself. This is not to say that communists cannot or do not engage in similar behaviors, nor that they cannot create more death.

However, death under communism(state by state) was mostly due to famine caused by communism collectivist policy. Concentration camps in China in particular are also not the result of their ideological communism(the way Soviet Gulags WERE the result of their communism), but from China's growing han chinese nationalism(a concept that is more fascist than communist). The aim of communism is related to class and collectivism by nature, not ethnicity whereas Fascism and nazism is based around ethnicity and nationality and not on class. Communists can engage with nationalism and ethnic cleansing, but not necessarily. Nazism meanwhile NECESSARILY deals with ethnic tension by its central premise.

North Korea's camps are more communistic ideologically, though since people who are interned are done so for being perceived ideological enemies and the disobedient. However, camps in Korea are designed for multi generational torture. Not necessarily exterminating people as quickly as possible. That may be just as twisted in its OWN way, but is not going to compete IN NUMBERS with a regime who's purpose was ethnic cleansing and clearing out ad many people as humanly possible for lebensraum. My point only comes up because you said "they killed many multiples more people" and I'm explaining the context behind that considering what we know about the nazis considering the much shorter time they existed for. Also, extermination and the removal of human beings is THE point for nazis.

With all that said, modern China and North Korea are two of the worst(if not the worst) regimes in the modern world. A long dead regime is not meant to distract from that, BUT that wasn't the topic. We were talking about nazis because the conversation was about which was worse. Not which is active today. Your comment WAS a point of comparison and because of that, I need to remind people WHY the nazi regime is so bad and why it can't be so easily dismissed with "well communists are worse bleh" because that removes so much context that it creates misremembering.

About 1 million people are estimated to have died under deliberate means in Chinese concentration camps. About 1 million people died in the gulags between Lenin and Stalin. 7 million people died in the holocaust, which was NOT the only nazi genocide. The numbers go WAAAAAAY up from their. Nazis also murdered countless Soviets, Serbs, Poles through annihilation, total war and even more systematic murder. Communists(historically) caused more death by famine than by systematic murder. China has not been dealing with famine as of late so Ji Xingping's administration probably commits more murder. That said, the numbers and the speed of the deaths based on what we know still do not compete. However, communist numbers ARE worse than standard fascist numbers. Stalin alone was more brutal than any of Europe's big three non nazi totalitarians(Mussolini, Franco and Salazar).

Btw, in terms of cruelty, nobody had Japan's unit 731 beat and hopefully never will. That one seldom ever comes up.

1

u/MemoryWholed Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

The conversation, if you go back to my original comment, is about the communists being the only people doing that shit today. You still sit here and defend/minimize it because “history” that everyone agrees was fucked and needed to stay in the past. But here you are running cover for the current state of that bullshit. Smmfh. If you actually care, now is the time to say so, not minimize it by talking about the past. Communists are objectively worse. If the nazi’s were still around racking up millions of deaths you wouldn’t sitting here nitpicking it like you’ve been doing. You’d call it like it was. Or at least I’d like to think so but I don’t know you. I do agree with many points you’ve made in all fairness, your central argument on the other hand…..

1

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

And yet you still made the comparison to the past itself. So if you bring it, it's fine. If I add context that runs counter to a specific statement, it's not fine.

You still sit here and defend/minimize it because “history” that everyone agrees needed was fucked and needed to stay in the past.

Who is minimizing it? I've noted that communists engaged in ethnic cleansing and I called their other policies failures. Failures I acknowledged killed more Chinese people than the Mongols btw.

If you actually care, now is the time to say so,

Already did. Read.

Communists are objectively worse

Depends. Again, compare Mao to Kruschev.

the nazi’s were still around racking up millions of deaths you wouldn’t sitting here nitpicking it like you’ve been doing. You’d call it like it was. Or at least I’d like to think so but I don’t know you.

Let me put this into even more context to avoid further confusion. In a post colonial world, I think the nazis were the ONLY regime worse than the communists. Literally just the only ones. So when I'm making in comparison that seems favorable to the communists(despite that not being the intention), keep in mind that's an unbelievably low low low low LOWWWWWWWWWWW bar. I even said they were worse than standard Fascism. So if worse than Fascism is me defending it, then it's not really a defense. The only point of contention is "worse than the nazis". And my counter was "MAYBE not quite considering context". Even then, that's a maybe because I've consistently acknowledged the death tolls. And even their supposed "egalitarian" ideology has not stopped them from engaging in actions reminiscent of the nazis.

My perspective on today's communist regimes is: I hope they all fall and their leaders suffer for their crimes. Does that clear everything up a little better? Xinping in particular btw is one of the most evil men currently in power.

Also, the point is regarding historical context. Worse =/= currently relevant. So when you compare the currently relevant with the past, don't dismiss arguments when they are about the past by saying "yeah, but communists are around now". You're the one who brought up the comparison to a group from the 30s and 40s.

2

u/MemoryWholed Aug 16 '22

That does clear it up for me, and I absolutely do appreciate you taking the time to do so. I don’t dismiss history. I bring it up whenever I see this Nazi shit to bring attention in some small way to what’s happening now and without fail, 100% of the time, people are like, “yeah but the past is bad”. Yeah, it was. And because of that we should call it out when we see it today. Forgive me for being so short, I by and large agree with you. It’s just shocking how people are so quick to turn a blind eye to these things for some reason and maybe I took that out on you. Apologies my dude.

1

u/Time-Strawberry-1371 Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

You're all good, man. No hard feelings. It gets heated when it comes to touchy historical/political subjects and you were probably used to seeing actual communists dismiss communist atrocities and shit.

And your intention is still good in the sense that yes, nazi regimes are gone and communist ones are STILL active and still committing atrocities I can only imagine. I can respect the place you were coming from.

1

u/mossbrooke Aug 13 '22

How times have changed

2

u/Scared-Ingenuity9082 Aug 13 '22

I know in the early 20th century the KKK marches would routinely gather million plus people and now they can barely get 10,000 in the 40s there was Nazi's sympathizers and large Groves and today there's only a few thousand of them granted the bad takes haven't diminished they're just no longer called Nazis anymore they switched over to different clubs or gangs.

0

u/jumpback2meanytime Aug 13 '22

Not really. The police still protect the Nazis.

1

u/mossbrooke Aug 14 '22

Ohhhhh.. Cr@p... I thought they were rallying AGAINST Nazis.

1

u/jumpback2meanytime Aug 14 '22

The Nazis were inside the building. These are the protestors outside and the police are keeping them from the Nazis inside. Same as today.

-3

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '22

[deleted]

7

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '22

[deleted]

2

u/electricwagon Aug 13 '22

I love how people still think antifa is an organization and not a political stance

4

u/RadicalCentrist95 Aug 13 '22

...oh, wait, you're serious.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa

You as a person can consider yourself an "anti-fascist", but then there are the organizations known as "Antifa".

TMYK

1

u/electricwagon Aug 13 '22

Damn, this is a big ass country to keep track of. Good find

2

u/Jeffsylvania Aug 13 '22

Zoom in on the signs, doofus. What do they say?

0

u/Crispy_AI Aug 13 '22

ANTIFA should go back to wearing suits.

1

u/FarmerAdventurous682 Aug 14 '22

They can’t afford suits

-3

u/jjc00ll Aug 13 '22

Smells like communism. So just as bad if not worse than the Nazis

1

u/knseeker Aug 13 '22

This post makes it seem like America has become more right wing, but that's silly. There was more racism and more pro nazism at the time, than nowadays

0

u/SassyFras07 Aug 13 '22

Fugazi-1992

0

u/FarmerAdventurous682 Aug 14 '22

If this group is the equivalent of antifa, why aren’t they breaking things, burning buildings, and looting?